Been Made Deputy Without Being Asked!

[Guest]

Dear all,

 

I hope you can help me with this. I try to be brief.

 

I have been working at a setting for the last few months.There have been lots of issues and Ofsted got involved. One of the action points was that manager didn't have a deputy.

Manager didn't really talk in great detail about Ofsted (our staff meeting was spent cutting out Christmas shapes instead?!) until 2 weeks after the visit when she quickly pulled me aside as I was about to go home. She then finally shared the O. action points with me and I saw that she had put me name down as her deputy. When I questioned her on this, she reluctantly explained that Ofsted said it has to be me as no-one else is qualified! (that was news to me, I assumed one of my colleagues was). I was not happy about the way it was handled and said that we needed to talk about this. I then had to rush off to get my children. Manager has since done nothing about it, despite me asking her frequently. On the advice of a friend (who is also an EY manager) I have sent an e-mail to manager to say, I was not happy to take on this responsibility until we have had a proper discussion.

 

My question is, can I be made a deputy without my consent? She sent the form to O. as she had to deal with this quickly, so Ofsted probably think I am Deputy.

 

As I said the setting has lots of issues and I would want a proper job description before agreeing to the role. She is not very good at paper work, so I'll probably end up writing it myself. Has anyone got a Deputy job description I could adapt to save me some time?

 

Also presumably I should be getting a salary enhancement for the extra responsibility? Could someone give me a rough idea of current rates, please?

 

sorry, that wasn't short at all. I'm waiting anxiously for replies, as I really need to get this sorted so I can sleep well again.

 

Thank you

 

x Titania

[Susan]

Sorry I cant help you but it doesnt really sound ok to me. Do you belong to a union, you need advice I think.

[HappyMaz]

No-one can make you be deputy if you don't want to do the job. If it were me I would put it in writing that before agreeing to be deputy I would like to see a job description/person spec and also to have it confirmed in writing what the new salary would be. I would also make it clear that I would not be undertaking any extra duties until this was settled.

 

Refusing to be deputy may well put your relationship with the manager under severe strain, but I would ask myself if I really wanted to work for someone who could treat me like that!

 

Do you know if there is much LA support for your setting? I'd have thought they would have some kind of input into a scenario like this.

 

Good luck - it does sound to be a very difficult situation!

[Fredbear]

Agree with Maz, that you need to clarify in writing regarding job description, her expectations and pay enhancements for this role. for you to make an informed decision. Is this a setting where you feel you could make change if needed, and expand you own professional development.

Just out of interest who has covered at the setting in the past in the Managers absence?

[narnia]

I agree, she should not have put you in that [osition, without asking you, though I can see she probably panicked? I guess the question is: do you have any objections to being a deputy? Presumably it means you'd only take charge in the event of her absence and it might even give you the opportunity to give her the kick up the backside that she sounds in need of? You do need to sort out the question of wages, of course, but if it's a title only to satisfy the O people, you might not get an increase. A lot to think about and I would have been cross to have been dealt with like that too. So, make a list of questions, and pros/cons, the attange a meeting with your boss to thrash it out. Ultimately though, what will you do if she says she can't afford to give you a pay rise; will you leave, or will you tell her that you WON'T be listed as deputy...........and then what do you do? will you write to Ofsted to tell them, or trust that your boss will? It's a potential minefield. I hope you manage to sort it out. ( you might also want to know if you are currently getting the same wage as your other colleague, who has no qualifications??)

[Guest]

I guess the question is: do you have any objections to being a deputy?

 

I do not have any objections to being deputy per se, but as such I would be legally responsible for all that happens in the setting in her absence and as I mentioned before there are lots of issues about non-compliance with current requirements (I don't think she has ever even read the EYFS and she is quite outspoken about her opinion of LA and Ofsted - in front of parents )

She is quite controlling (I was told off once for using different colour paper for the children to paint on. They wanted to draw snow, so I got them some black paper and they loved it! Was told I need to ask her!) and she doesn't like to delegate, so I don't even know where she keeps the registration forms.

Personally I think she is a liability and unfit to work with children. We haven't had a fire drill since I started there four months ago and we have had lots of new children. The building is old and completely wooden and has had a fire in it before. She also likes to use real candles for children's birthday parties which she puts on the floor and once she dropped a match when lighting one at circle time and instead of quickly stomping on it, she calmly bent down to pick it up, by which time it had burnt a hole in our carpet!

 

I recently managed to persuade her to use ice in our water tray and to inspire her I froze a star fish in a bowl. The next day she turns up with some ice shapes herself, great I thought, but when I looked closer they had sharp screw, a rusty old key and various other small sharp things sticking out of them ?!

You couldn't make it up! She seems to have no common sense.

 

Since she is the owner of the business and there is no committee, I don't know where else to take it. I did actually contact EY Advisor, as the way my recruitment was conducted, was shocking. She likes to recruit informally, people she knows through church or friends of hers, never mind if they have no qualifications or experience. This is how we ended up with me being the only qualified person in the setting. I also came through a friend, but luckily I do have L3.

Until recently her daughter, who has no qualification at all, deputized for her.

I could write a book on this setting, but better stop here.

 

So I'm really not sure if I want to take on this role unless I am given some means of quality improvements. I have told her lots of times that we really need to talk about this, but she keeps being evasive, saying she'll meet with me next week and then spend the time doing something else until I have to go to get my children.

 

sorry to rumble, I'm actually getting sick over this and keep thinking about leaving, but what about the children?

 

x Titania

[Fredbear]

Oh Titania what a predicament for you. I'm not really sure what to advise you on this occasion, other than do you know any other practioners close by or Advisors that you could speak to in confidence. You are obviously a skilled person who wants to do your best for the children in your care, but i'm not sure how you can make change with a manager so set in her ways.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be able to make some other suggestions to help you.

Wishing you well.

[hali]

as my nan would say (god bless her) 'its not like the old days' :wacko: - soooooooooo true

[HappyMaz]

If I were your friend sitting opposite you at your kitchen table drinking tea I would ask you why on earth you are working in this setting? It seems to have little to recommend it, and in fact it is beginning to make you ill. If you truly believe the owner is unfit to manage an early years setting, you could be sitting on a timebomb because the conditions you describe could give rise to serious problems in the future.

 

You mentioned talking to your early years department, and I wonder what sort of response you got? I'd like to think if one of my staff members had concerns about the way our group is run and they spoke to a development worker about it, that we would at least get a visit and some support as a matter of urgency.

 

Your last question - 'what about the children' - is a very emotional one, and I think this is why so many of us stay in situations that make us feel uncomfortable or unhappy because ultimately we don't want to let them down or leave them in the lurch. It sounds to me as if there are several non-compliance issues that would make Ofsted very unhappy, and that make a complaint from a parent very likely at some point in the future. It sounds a very unhealthy environment to me, for children and adults alike.

 

I think taking the post of deputy to the owner of a private group does indicate general agreement with the way the setting is run, its ethos etc. Do you feel you have the ability to make a change to the way the setting is run? Do you think the owner will ever really allow things to change? If the answer to these questions is 'no' then I think you should think very carefully indeed before taking on the role.

 

Good luck, I really feel for you in this terrible dilemma.

[Cait]

I wonder how she'd react if you said "I will, but if you want me to take some responsibility then you have to be prepared for the changes I'm going to make"

[narnia]

I do not have any objections to being deputy per se, but as such I would be legally responsible for all that happens in the setting in her absence and as I mentioned before there are lots of issues about non-compliance with current requirements (I don't think she has ever even read the EYFS and she is quite outspoken about her opinion of LA and Ofsted - in front of parents )

She is quite controlling (I was told off once for using different colour paper for the children to paint on. They wanted to draw snow, so I got them some black paper and they loved it! Was told I need to ask her!) and she doesn't like to delegate, so I don't even know where she keeps the registration forms.

Personally I think she is a liability and unfit to work with children. We haven't had a fire drill since I started there four months ago and we have had lots of new children. The building is old and completely wooden and has had a fire in it before. She also likes to use real candles for children's birthday parties which she puts on the floor and once she dropped a match when lighting one at circle time and instead of quickly stomping on it, she calmly bent down to pick it up, by which time it had burnt a hole in our carpet!

 

I recently managed to persuade her to use ice in our water tray and to inspire her I froze a star fish in a bowl. The next day she turns up with some ice shapes herself, great I thought, but when I looked closer they had sharp screw, a rusty old key and various other small sharp things sticking out of them ?!

You couldn't make it up! She seems to have no common sense.

 

Since she is the owner of the business and there is no committee, I don't know where else to take it. I did actually contact EY Advisor, as the way my recruitment was conducted, was shocking. She likes to recruit informally, people she knows through church or friends of hers, never mind if they have no qualifications or experience. This is how we ended up with me being the only qualified person in the setting. I also came through a friend, but luckily I do have L3.

Until recently her daughter, who has no qualification at all, deputized for her.

I could write a book on this setting, but better stop here.

 

So I'm really not sure if I want to take on this role unless I am given some means of quality improvements. I have told her lots of times that we really need to talk about this, but she keeps being evasive, saying she'll meet with me next week and then spend the time doing something else until I have to go to get my children.

 

sorry to rumble, I'm actually getting sick over this and keep thinking about leaving, but what about the children?

 

x Titania

 

Hmm, in view of all the above, you need to do some hard thinking. Do you want to stay, in which case, you need to tell your boss that you MUST have the meeting....................and give her a time that suits YOU.

As to your concerns...........ok, I also like to use real candles on the children's birthday cakes and can't see a problem with that, so long as things are properly supervised. I'm glad she dealt with the dropped match calmly ( which is, after all, how you would need to conduct a fire drill, or to get out in the event of a real fire?), but she needs to set in place regular fire drills ( we do ours once a month, at a different time and day on each occasion).Of course, there's nothing to stop any member of staff calling a fire drill exercise, which is what we do...........it keeps ME on my toes, as I don't know when one will be called! I have even asked parents to feel free to call one if they are in , though none ever has!

As to the ice things, well, she MIGHT argue that rusty things have an interest of their own, of course...........how did they become rusty/what makes that happen? and do a follow-up experiment to demonstrate this. Sharp things such as screws? well, again, she might feel that the activity was supervised and the children need opportunities to learn to be careful?( Part of a risky play policy, perhaps??)

I'm absolutely NOT trying to make light of your worries, just coming at it from a different angle, but you can only discuss this with her when you have the meeting. If you are really concerned about her practice, then OFSTED has a whistle-blowing hotline, so you can call and report her. I do think though, it's probably better to try to change things from the inside first and if you get nowhere, then I'm afraid it's time to blow that whistle! Good luck with it all, it sounds like you have a lot to deal with xx

[redjayne]

can I ask how many staff there are all together - and does the manager have a level 3 also , because as you are probably aware anyway at least 50% of the staff do have to be qualified to at least level 2 and supervisors to level 3.

 

I would suggest as others have said - ask for a job description, speak to your Advisors , and give her a deadline to have a proper discussion with you about her expectations for your role. If she doesn't do this then you have the whistleblowing hotline etc and I would get out if its making you that anxious,

 

Good luck

[Guest]

Dear all,

 

thank you so much for all your replies, it's been a very busy week, so haven't had a chance to post (as well as doing my Degree I'm learning to drive). Nothing has got any better since my last post, in fact after asking manager for this meeting almost every day, she told me today, that actually she doesn't want me to be deputy, as I'm still too new to the setting. Having worked there for four months now and having supervised sessions in my previous setting, I questioned her further and eventually she told me that I had to learn to fit in with her ways of running a nursery first. When I pointed out to her, that if she was off, she would need me to come in anyway as there is no-one else who is qualified she said no she doesn't want me to. I then reminded her that there is a legal requirement to have an L3 staff at all times, she calmly told me: 'Well, they (Ofsted) will have to make an exemption!'

 

can I ask how many staff there are all together - and does the manager have a level 3 also , because as you are probably aware anyway at least 50% of the staff do have to be qualified to at least level 2 and supervisors to level 3.

 

Redjayne-We have 5 other members of staff of which I am the only one to have an early years qualification and one has recently started her training.

 

Manager then went on telling me all the things she doesn't like about me (like supporting a mother who was struggling to settle her child; manager was getting impatient and told mum to leave her even though the little one was VERY distressed). She is my key child and I was doing my best to comfort her, when manger told me she would be looking after that child today, as I was molly-cuddling her. Eventually when I went to the other room I found her sobbing on the sofa and took her back. She settled with me within minutes. The manager is so controlling, when I talk to one of my key parent's children, she listens in and interrupts us, completely spoiling my carefully put questions. She has very strong opinions and doesn't seem to reflect on her views, she keeps talking about her 25 years of experience (I have only 13).

 

I had to try really hard to keep calm and told her we would best talk later (as by this point the parents had started to arrive).

 

I also like to use real candles on the children's birthday cakes and can't see a problem with that, so long as things are properly supervised.

 

I totally agree with you, in one of my previous settings we even made fires and toasted marshmallows over them.

 

I'm glad she dealt with the dropped match calmly ( which is, after all, how you would need to conduct a fire drill, or to get out in the event of a real fire?), but she needs to set in place regular fire drills ( we do ours once a month, at a different time and day on each occasion).Of course, there's nothing to stop any member of staff calling a fire drill exercise, which is what we do...........it keeps ME on my toes, as I don't know when one will be called! I have even asked parents to feel free to call one if they are in , though none ever has!

 

I love the idea of staff and parents initiating fire drills! I don't think manager would appreciate that at all. As far as I know they don't do them at all. That was one thing Ofsted criticised back in 2009.

 

As to the ice things, well, she MIGHT argue that rusty things have an interest of their own, of course...........how did they become rusty/what makes that happen? and do a follow-up experiment to demonstrate this.

 

yes, that would be wonderful, but I'm afraid she doesn't do that sort of thing. In fact all the interesting ideas come from other staff and we have to fight to get them approved. She controls absolutely anything. I'm not allowed to start an activity, I was told off for spontaneously making a cardboard tube Rudolph. Can't see why, the children loved it so much, they all wanted to have a go. When I first started there, every week was exactly the same, same puzzles, same paints, same bricks. We don't plan based on observations. Children had no say in what is put out. Even I was getting bored by week 3, so have started to make some small changes, like combining toys (was told off, this is not what we do here!) asked if I could borrow a toy from the other room (no, she doesn't like it) and so on...

 

Sharp things such as screws? well, again, she might feel that the activity was supervised and the children need opportunities to learn to be careful?( Part of a risky play policy, perhaps??)

 

risky play policy? If only. In my first week, I witnessed a circle time, where manager told children off for playing with sticks. She said if they see a stick they should give it to a grown-up, as sticks are dangerous. (in my last setting we went to Forest school every week and touched sticks! we even used them to make dens )

 

I'm absolutely NOT trying to make light of your worries, just coming

at it from a different angle

 

thank you, I do appreciate this. It is very important to question one's views. I know that the other staff share my worries, but are too scared to speak up.

I was so flustered after work today, that my husband said it's time to leave and I think he is right. Unfortunately there aren't many P/T jobs near me at the moment, but I'll keep my eyes open now.

 

thank you all, I really appreciate the support you have been giving. And to end on a good note, I just got my last assignment back and I've got an A, Hooray!

 

x Titania

[HappyMaz]

thank you all, I really appreciate the support you have been giving. And to end on a good note, I just got my last assignment back and I've got an A, Hooray!

Good for you, Titania.

 

Well she couldn't have made her opinions any clearer, and I think your husband is right. It is time for you to move on because you will not be able to change practice as things stand at the moment. It sounds to me that she wants to put your name forward as the Deputy to keep Ofsted happy, but not actually rely on you to run the setting in her absence.

 

I would make plans for a future away from this group if I possibly could. Good luck!

[dublinbay]

Great advice from other posters Titania.

 

Just wanted to say congratulations and well done on getting an 'A' in your assignment. Good for you!

[Fredbear]

Hi i am glad you have finally been able to make some kind of decision on what is a difficult dilemma for you.

It appears from your posts that the manager is not going to change under any circumstances and i think if you stay it is just going to undermine everything you know is right and should be happening.

Lets hope the group gets support soon to implement and action change, and you personally find somewhere that will use your skills and obvious passion for Early Years.

Wishing you well.

Congrats on your A too.

Edited January 21, 2011 by bridger

[narnia]

Ok, I was trying to see it from both sides, of course. BUT this lady sounds like a real control freak, possibly because she feels threatened by your qualifications? I really think, in view of her decision NOT to have a named deputy, that you should write to Ofsted, or better still, phone the whistle-blowing line and tell them that you are no longer the deputy, so they have it on file from your own say-so, rather than your manager claiming that you are still in post. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but my heart really goes out to the children!