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Offering 6 Hours Instead Of 3


kristina
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After some advice with regards the 15 hour entitlement.

At present we are open 5 mornings a week, some parents have enquired if we will be offering back to back sessions from September, we are a sessional Pre-School within school grounds.

If we offered 9-12 & then 12-3 what would happen about staff lunch breaks, if any of you offer this do you have morning staff & afternoon staff? Also I assume I would need to inform Ofsted and I assume we would still be classed as sessional daycare?

Quite a few questions just trying to work out what will work best, at the moment we offer a lunch club 3 days per week and parents would still want this to continue, This would mean some children leaving at 12 some children arriving at 12 those for lunch club leaving at 1 and the rest leaving at 3!! This all seems very confusing and time consuming to say the least!! Not to mention paperwork etc!!

We are based in essex and our funding is staying the same in September so no increase in fees either!!

 

Kris

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Forgot to say - we stagger staff breaks and have dinner supervisiors to maintain ratios. This period is tricky to manage and as Ofsted often look at such transition periods you do really need to get it right ASAP.

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regarding ratios while staff have lunch, or when numbers are low due to holiday times, such as the Easter break, so staff are laid off, etc.........................I believed that you always had to have a minimum of two staff with the children, no matter how few there are.My placement tells me that's not true and you can have one adult, so long as the number of children doesn't go over ratio ( so, 1:8 for 3-5 year olds, 1:4 for the 2-3's and, interestingly, 1:6 in the baby room 0-2's in this setting.)They tell me that if they were childminding, they would be able to have those kind of numbers, so it's ok and they say they have checked this out, but not with whom.There are other adults in the building when this happens, but IS it ok??I was left alone in the 2-3 room last week( and i'm classed as a student,though obviously I have an enhanced crb, but they don't allow me to change nappies, 'because you're a student'!)

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we offer 9-12 or 9-12.50 or 9-3 for funded children. No problem with children going. morning session finishes 12 with songs and stories then children not staying for lunch go home. Again after lunch children go at 12.50 before afternoon session begins. We tend to have a more relaxed session in the after mainly just play.

 

We also offer 2-3yr olds tues, wed or thurs afternoon 1-3pm session. Yes they come at one which gives us 10 mins for older children going home before these children come. they join in play with older children and it works really well.

 

this sounds complicated but works.

 

generally we have about 6 children going at 12.00 out of 30 ish then about the same at 12.50 with about 15-20 staying for the afternoon. we then have about 8-10 2-3yr olds coming in the afternnoon. As you can see from the numbers you have not got hundreds of children coming and going. we have a member of staff allocated on the door and only open it at these times. Parents are happy to wait.

 

we are registered with ofsted for full day care.

 

regarding lunch breaks staff are entitled to 20 mins unpaid after 6 hours. my staff are paid for lunch and are happy to eat there lunch with the children.

 

buttercup

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Don't forget to check out your insurance as well as depending as to who you are with increasing number of sessions changes your insurance banding.

 

We offer 9 to 2 and are classed as full day as children can stay back to back 2.5 hour blocks which puts us over the 4 hours continuous educare limit on sessional.

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as a Day Nursery we have always had the age old issue of staffing over lunch breaks. and as the majority of our children are in for lunch as well the only way we can cover this is by either paying staff for thier break and them eating with the children and then having a short break when back in full ratio, or employing staff to cover lunches. OFSTED did inspect us a few months back and they were ok with the fact that we were slightly over ratio as long as the other staff were in the building and easily called in an emergency. The Inspector pointed out that when all of the children are in one area ( the dining room) it presented less of an issue than if the children were in freeflow all over the Nursery. She also said it was no differnt to having staff in and out of the room changing nappies and putting children down for a sleep - maybe we were lucky and had a sensible inspector. :o

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With regard to Narnias comments about ratios there are two things that would be an issue for me

a) The fact that staff are being left alone with children - for thier own security/safeguarding

xD one person with six 0-2's - what if one child choked as little ones often do when eating - how can one person administer First Aid and watch 5 others :o Also youngsters need some assistance with feeding/loading spoons etc - how will one person do that- and what happens if the Firebell goes off ? :(

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With regard to Narnias comments about ratios there are two things that would be an issue for me

a) The fact that staff are being left alone with children - for thier own security/safeguarding

xD one person with six 0-2's - what if one child choked as little ones often do when eating - how can one person administer First Aid and watch 5 others :o Also youngsters need some assistance with feeding/loading spoons etc - how will one person do that- and what happens if the Firebell goes off ? :(

 

 

i assumed krys is looking at pre school children and not little ones as yes this would be a bit different. i would also assume that a minimum of two staff should be present at all times regardless of numbers.

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I was left alone in the 2-3 room last week( and i'm classed as a student,though obviously I have an enhanced crb, but they don't allow me to change nappies, 'because you're a student'!)

Do you have an enhanced CRB for your placement setting though, narnia? If not then I would suggest the setting isn't meeting its obligations under the safer recruitment procedures which does (or should) cover volunteers and students.

 

You should talk to your EYPS provider about this, but also I'd be inclined to ring Ofsted for a definitive answer. 1:6 can't be legal in an under twos room surely? Even if there are others elsewhere in the building. If you needed to give emergency first aid to one of those children who would call for assistance?

 

The welfare requirements state that there should always be two staff members present, although I don't belive the guidance makes it clear whether this should be in each room or overall in a full day care setting in the traditional sense.

 

I think you're right to express your concern over this, narnia - mainly for children's safety of course, but you shouldn't ignore your own vulnerability should something go wrong.

 

Maz

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Hi

As Buttercup mentioned we are a Pre-School and the youngest would be 2 years old. This means with 4 staff I was thinking 20 minute break split 2 & 2 with staff, there is a school staffroom so they would still be available if needed.

It was more if we would still be classed as a sessional Pre-School or full day care? Any Ideas as there would be two sessions a day each under 4 hours so I assume sessional?

Kris

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It was more if we would still be classed as a sessional Pre-School or full day care? Any Ideas as there would be two sessions a day each under 4 hours so I assume sessional?

Kris

The distinction between sessional and full day care settings was removed when the new childcare registers came into being, I think. New certificates are being issued which refer to group daycare as being "childcare on non-domestic settings". The number of hours open per week and number of weeks open during the year are only used as a method of calculating how much your annual fee for registering with Ofsted is.

 

The minimum ratios are the same for all daycare providers, so you'd need to look at the ages of the children during the lunch period and work out the number of staff you need from there.

 

Maz

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Thanks HappyMaz, to be honest that's what I thought.

But I have had funding info through from my local council and they are offering funding for the foundation degree etc but only for full day care not sessional! So obviously LEA's are still working with sessional or full day care!

I think I will have a word with Ofsted and see if i can get any clarification!!

 

Thanks

 

Kris

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But I have had funding info through from my local council and they are offering funding for the foundation degree etc but only for full day care not sessional!

Yes I think they are using the old session/daycare definitions to decide whether settings are eligible for graduate leader funding - which I think is grossly unfair. Some lobbying is needed here I think!

 

Let us know what Ofsted say!

 

Maz

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Lunch break... we paid our staff for the 20 mins so they had lunch with the children, we also needed a good ratio at this time for all the coming, going, staying etc at changeover time...

 

in our case some stayed all day as well so we needed to ensure we had plenty of staff.. that said it was usually 3 and once children and adults are used to the routine it just seemed to slot into place..

 

If staff wanted a break we made sure it was possible, usually by afternoon staff coming early or morning staff late or when all were sat eating.. and they stayed on premises so were able to be called.. never lass than 2 staff with the children at any time..

 

 

The wording sessional is a bit defunct but still used as everyone knows what it is... funding for the FD etc and graduate leader fund is usually for settings which operates more than 4 hours in a day... that is how they put it in our area... as it is full day settings which have to have eyp in place by? ( sorry think 2015 unless it has changed) and sessional settings do not.. hence the distinction in funding...

 

For Ofsted I would inform them of changing hours and being open all day - it may not change the certificate but may the fee you have to pay them..

 

and yes don't forget the insurance.. ours actually didn't change as we had 2 sessions a day anyway..

 

Inge

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I understood it that anything offered over 4 hours meant you have to be registered as full day care and the registration fee is higher.

 

So therefore if you offer two sessions of 3 hours back to back that would mean you need a full daycare registration.

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I understood it that anything offered over 4 hours meant you have to be registered as full day care and the registration fee is higher.

Ofsted no longer make a distinction between 'sessional' and 'full daycare' - just whether care is provided on domestic or non-domestic premises. The number of weeks open per year and hours open per week are used to determine how much your registration/annual fee will be, not the type of childcare provided.

 

Here's the link to the page on the Ofsted website where they explain the various types of registered childcare provision.

 

Maz

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Do you have an enhanced CRB for your placement setting though, narnia? If not then I would suggest the setting isn't meeting its obligations under the safer recruitment procedures which does (or should) cover volunteers and students.

 

You should talk to your EYPS provider about this, but also I'd be inclined to ring Ofsted for a definitive answer. 1:6 can't be legal in an under twos room surely? Even if there are others elsewhere in the building. If you needed to give emergency first aid to one of those children who would call for assistance?

 

The welfare requirements state that there should always be two staff members present, although I don't belive the guidance makes it clear whether this should be in each room or overall in a full day care setting in the traditional sense.

 

I think you're right to express your concern over this, narnia - mainly for children's safety of course, but you shouldn't ignore your own vulnerability should something go wrong.

 

Maz

 

 

Yes, I have two CRB's one for my own setting and one I had to do through University to cover placements( though how it does that when it's not specific to that setting,I don't know?)...........................and yes, I think it's time for the O call ............

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Yes, I have two CRB's one for my own setting and one I had to do through University to cover placements( though how it does that when it's not specific to that setting,I don't know?)

Well I guess it must work in the same way as CRBs for agency staff work narnia - although I have to say I don't see the difference between that and 'borrowing' a member of staff from a neighbouring setting to cover an emergency.

 

But then what do I know? Let us know what Ofsted says!

 

Maz

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Ofsted no longer make a distinction between 'sessional' and 'full daycare' - just whether care is provided on domestic or non-domestic premises. The number of weeks open per year and hours open per week are used to determine how much your registration/annual fee will be, not the type of childcare provided.

 

Here's the link to the page on the Ofsted website where they explain the various types of registered childcare provision.

 

Maz

Thanks Maz - interesting reading !

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