Qualification Panic

[Guest]

Hi all,

 

I have just had a look on the list of recognised level 6 qualifications and cannot find my degree that I have spent the last 3 years slogging my guts out on.

Also some of the other BA Hons Early Years degree's are not recognised and need topping up to level 6.

 

A bit shocked that this wasn't raised before by the CWDC.

 

Anyone else been downscaled.

 

Net xx

[hali]

Maz's and my qualifications are not on there either and we have only just completed!!! - it is being looked into we are told

[HappyMaz]

Maz's and my qualifications are not on there either and we have only just completed!!! - it is being looked into we are told

If I get the chance I shall raise this with the CWDC tomorrow at the Nursery World Show!

 

I don't think it means you've (or even your qualification) been downscaled, netfranklin - but I think there may have been problems with individual universities being added to the list. Although personally I'm still concerned about what it says about degree-qualified practitioners' qualifications being mapped at Level 3 because only someone with EYPS or QTS can be considered as being a Level 6.

 

I'm remaining calm until I'm given reason to think otherwise!

 

Maz

[hali]

owww corner them M and ask for explanations

[Guest]

"Although personally I'm still concerned about what it says about degree-qualified practitioners' qualifications being mapped at Level 3 because only someone with EYPS or QTS can be considered as being a Level 6."

 

Blimey Maz, I hadn't read that bit.

What a joke.I almost understand them trying to professionalise Early Years but does experience count for nothing.

 

If I wasn't on a first aid course tomorrow I would corner them with you.

 

Net xx

[HappyMaz]

We spent a long time venting our spleen about this in chat tonight - Mundia calmed us to some extent but I still believe that in terms of leading the EYFS, it is EYP/QTS or you're classed as a Level 3 as far as the CWDC is concerned. Mundia has likened this to someone with a degree not being qualified to teach until they gain QTS, which does make sense.

 

Our Honours degrees are a full and valid Level 6 qualification - they haven't been downgraded or downscaled in any way. Its just that for the purposes of leading the EYFS (and also applying the 1:13 ratio) when the EYFS documentation says 'full and valid Level 6 qualification' they only mean EYPS or QTS.

 

All a bit galling for someone who has undertaken the Foundation Degree and then topped up to Honours in the belief that this would make them a 'graduate leader' but who are not interested in going on to EYPS. I shall enquire more about this tomorrow if I get the chance, and report back...

 

Maz

[hali]

thanks M

[anita.kennedy]

We spent a long time venting our spleen about this in chat tonight - Mundia calmed us to some extent but I still believe that in terms of leading the EYFS, it is EYP/QTS or you're classed as a Level 3 as far as the CWDC is concerned. Mundia has likened this to someone with a degree not being qualified to teach until they gain QTS, which does make sense.

 

Our Honours degrees are a full and valid Level 6 qualification - they haven't been downgraded or downscaled in any way. Its just that for the purposes of leading the EYFS (and also applying the 1:13 ratio) when the EYFS documentation says 'full and valid Level 6 qualification' they only mean EYPS or QTS.

 

All a bit galling for someone who has undertaken the Foundation Degree and then topped up to Honours in the belief that this would make them a 'graduate leader' but who are not interested in going on to EYPS. I shall enquire more about this tomorrow if I get the chance, and report back...

 

Maz

Hi, my understanding of it is, that when I have finished my BA Hons top up, I am going on to do the EYP for an extra three months full time. I am already the lead in my setting and I am trying to get another member of staff to do the degree to reach graduate level, but they do not need to do the eyps as I will be that. The LA have requested that we have two graduates as we are classed as an underprivlaged area, therefore one eyp and one graduate. Hope this makes sense.

[Gezabel]

We spent a long time venting our spleen about this in chat tonight - Mundia calmed us to some extent but I still believe that in terms of leading the EYFS, it is EYP/QTS or you're classed as a Level 3 as far as the CWDC is concerned. Mundia has likened this to someone with a degree not being qualified to teach until they gain QTS, which does make sense.

 

Our Honours degrees are a full and valid Level 6 qualification - they haven't been downgraded or downscaled in any way. Its just that for the purposes of leading the EYFS (and also applying the 1:13 ratio) when the EYFS documentation says 'full and valid Level 6 qualification' they only mean EYPS or QTS.

 

All a bit galling for someone who has undertaken the Foundation Degree and then topped up to Honours in the belief that this would make them a 'graduate leader' but who are not interested in going on to EYPS. I shall enquire more about this tomorrow if I get the chance, and report back...

 

Maz

I am really sorry that I missed the chat as I would certainly have joined in the 'venting'!

 

I remember some time ago there was a discussion about 'old NNEB's' with a similar vein of 'not good enough'. I don't often get really incensed but on that occasion I did and wrote to my MP. He was superb and I received a reply from the then Secretary of State for Education. This letter was shown time and time again to OFSTED inspectors, EY advisors etc as evidence that pre 1989 NNEB's could and indeed were still valid (providing updates in legislation had been taken on board).

 

Now I feel incensed again. GUTTED sums up how I feel now. I don't want to appear stroppy or getting on my high horse but the bottom line for me is that I have invested too much in the way of time, effort and money on achieving my level 6. I also don't want to appear big headed but I am actually very proud of what I have achieved and I am simply not prepared to have it all trivialised by the CWDC (or anyone else!) who deem it has to be either a level 3 or QTS/EYPS. What about all the level 4's and 5's out there and their efforts in upping their qualifications.

 

It may sound silly but what hurts the most is the way the CWDC suddenly backtracked and issued an ammendment to the EYFS about the 'only relevant' level 6 qualification.

 

I am writing to my MP and hope he can be as helpful and supportive as he was a few years ago, I am also writing to the CWDC asking them for an explanation.

Doesn't legislation have to go through some legal process?? The content of the EYFS was 'out' for consultation before it was finalised and then they just change a hugely important part of it???

 

I have never been one for initiating 'campaigns' but actually now think that if enough people got together to express the utter disappointment and unfairness of this change then maybe, just maybe the CWDC will think again.

 

Looking forward to hearing anything from the exhibition today and I will keep you updated with the response to my letters (and probably a few phone calls too!)

 

Sorry if I sound ratty but really, really fed up with it all today

[hali]

you rant away Geraldine - i was in the same boat as you with my NNEB and wrote to my MP! and am very interested whats going to happen with all this - i too am extremely proud of achieving my level 6 - never thought i could it but recognition from those above would be good!

[Guest]

I wanted to take a break before considering EYP I have worked so hard to get my degree and will hopefully graduate in June....they keep moving the goalposts and it is sooooo demoralising. I wanted to have abreak and see if my Level 6 would sit in my pocket for a while......I am getting pretty fed up really...maybe a change of career is in order. It would seem no matter how high we jump we have to keep jumping higher....I, like lots of others have embraced the challenge of studying at degree level with so many other commitments - conversations like this one we are having really does make me think again about my future. Edited January 24, 2009 by Guest

[hali]

shirel i think quite a few of us are pondering our careers and where they are heading - i know i cerrtainly am! - its just such a shame

[louby loo]

What annoys me most if the fact the CWDC state that post grads need to have a 'relevant degree' to do the EYPs..which is certainly not happening in my area - 'any dregree' seems more like it! Yet those of us with sector endosed FDs, years of experience, level 3..still have to spend longer doing the EYPs!! and if we just do the BAhons that doesn't even count!

 

sorry rambled a bit there........ but hope you get my point!

[HappyMaz]

sorry rambled a bit there........ but hope you get my point!

We did, louby loo.

 

The CWDC stand appeared to be manned by PR people - so I didn't get to ask my question. Somehow we missed the CWDC update talk too - so I guess all I can do is to email them and see what they say!

 

Unless Geraldine has plans for a mass campaign...

[louby loo]

Unless Geraldine has plans for a mass campaign...

 

 

Count me in!!!!

[Gezabel]

Unless Geraldine has plans for a mass campaign... :rolleyes:

 

The way I feel now it could very well materialise!!!!!!

 

OK here is todays rant..........................................

 

I have spent most of the morning on the phone to the CWDC and OFSTED.

 

I phoned the CWDC in relation to the amendment to appendix 2 of the EYFS. I said I hoped I was misreading their amendment but it seemed as though levels 4/5/6 were being 'amalgamated' into level 3!! I was told that the only level 6 deemed suitable to 'deliver the EYFS' is either QTS or EYPS.

 

I gave two hypothetical setting examples:

1) Setting with 5 members of staff of which four were level 3 and one was level 4

2) Setting with 5 members of staff of which two were level 3, one level 4, one Foundation Degree and one BA (Hons)

 

I suggested that setting 2 had a 'better' qualified workforce but was told 'no' :wacko:

I ended by asking her 'Are you saying that it is either level 3 or QTS/EYP and nothing in between' and her reply was 'yes, pretty much!' Their aim (which we knew) is to have an EYP in every full daycare setting by 2015 and they are the only ones who are deemed able/capable/suitable to deliver the EYFS.

 

I then phoned OFSTED (still reeling from my conversation with CWDC and thinking of what I could have spent thousands of pounds on instead of my study!). The chap knew his stuff and was SO supportive and helpful. He spoke to an inspector who happened to be in the office and she was not happy with what I had been told. The chap has taken all my details and the inspector specfically asked for all my qualifications. 'Mrs OFSTED' is going to phone or email me later - I will let you know if I hear anything.

 

I will be writing to my MP but will await the OFSTED response first.

 

Just a thought....... looking at the figures in this weeks Nursery World it says that 'over half' the current workforce do not hold a level 3 qualification.

In discussing EYP it says that to meet the 2015 deadline the workforce will need 20,000 EYP's. Sunce the launch of EYPS in 2006 there are currently 2,500 practitioners with EYPS and 1,900 currently following a pathway to achieving the status.

 

Now I know maths is not my strongpoint :unsure: but something tells me that in the 6 years left there will need to be a further 15,600 practitioners achieving EYPS and bearing in mind that over half the current workforce does not hold a level 3 I do not think the Government's aim will be achieved! Then what? are they going to close settings without an EYP?

 

apologies again for ranting but oooooooooooooohh I am not a happy bunny

[Guest]

My Foundation degree isnt on their either nor one of my Seniors qualifications, have emailed CWDC ut of course have heard nothing yet, OfSTED were't interested and said to contact CWDC!

[Gezabel]

My Foundation degree isnt on their either nor one of my Seniors qualifications, have emailed CWDC ut of course have heard nothing yet, OfSTED were't interested and said to contact CWDC!

 

It's all very frustrating isn't it! In November 2008 the CWDC made their updated qualifications list available on line.

 

If my understanding is correct all qualifications are 'measured' against two sets of criteria deemed as necessary by the CWDC. The first set of criteria are mandatory and the second, I think kind of 'desirable'. All qualifications must meet the mandatory criteria and some (even some fairly recent ones) apparently don't.

 

Either they 'don't' full stop and are not on the list or they are on the list but marked as 'further training required'.

However, I also know that some valid qualifications do not yet appear on the list which just adds to the confusion/frustration.

 

I have some colleagues who need to undergo further training to ensure their qualification remains valid. I would suggest ringing the CWDC as they seem to take forever to reply to emails ( if at all!!)

 

It frustrates me even more that there seems to be a total lack of consistency in advice given! The chap at OFSTED who just happened to answer my call was extremely helpful and yet you get the 'not interested' person taking you call!!

 

Good luck with sorting your queries out and let us know how you get on

[Gezabel]

OK maybe I have finally lost the plot!!!

 

I have been looking at the CWDC qualifications list and the level 6 qualifications that meet the criteria.

 

On closer inspection I found the Early Years Practitioner Status is listed as a qualification awarded by the CWDC but guess what!!! It does NOT meet all the criteria Of course it meets the mandatory criteria but the final element of the optional criteria is:

 

'Includes all areas of the Common Core of Skills and Knowledge for the Children’s Workforce' and EYPS does not meet this

 

I then went on a further wander to see if there is any level 6 qualification that does meet all elements of the mandatory and optional criteria and I found one!

 

"BA (Hons) Early Childhood Studies (recognised practitioner status)" from Manchester Metropolitan University meets the lot!!

 

I just don't get it! I am tired of hearing it's EYP or nothing but would have expected it to meet all the criteria but hey ho what do I know!!! :wacko:

[Guest]

And there's me thinking the EYP was a status and not a qualification - silly me!!!

[hali]

umm was thinking the same Janny - Tescos is looking more appealing by the day

[Gezabel]

so did I until I saw it on the CWDC's very own website listed with (surprise surprise!) the CWDC as the provider!

[Guest]

Now I know maths is not my strongpoint but something tells me that in the 6 years left there will need to be a further 15,600 practitioners achieving EYPS and bearing in mind that over half the current workforce does not hold a level 3 I do not think the Government's aim will be achieved! Then what? are they going to close settings without an EYP?

 

I haven't looked at the CWDC qualifications list recently but fully agree with the above, I recognised this back in 2007(maybe even 2006, being the forward thinker that I am) when I was looking at my settings workforce qualifications and what would be required of myself and my staff to meet the 2015 deadline. In this process I discovered that my then manager was not prepared to do further study or to go for EYPS status. I contacted Ofsted & CWDC at that time to query the 'contractual' dilemma they had put me in. I would have to change the staff's contracts to include a requirement to continue in further study and to gain specific qualifications (as not in their original contract of 8 yrs standing). I asked, hypothetically, what if my staff refused to accept the terms of such a new contract. They admitted they hadn't thought of this, then went on to quote 'research such as EPPE etc says that qualified workforce = quality etc etc. In other words they hadn't fully considered the employment issues required of employers to meet their requirements. I pointed out that if my staff member refused the new contract she would leave, would this be considered as 'constructive dismissal? What about my other staff, one with special needs who with support may possibly gain a level 2, but could never reach a level 3, What do I sack her in 2015, this person with 10 yrs experience, great with the children but, due to her disability, be unable to achieve level 3. Would I be liable to a discrimination lawsuit if I had to her terminated her employment? I certainly couldn't keep these 2 staff on, over and above 'required' qualified staff.

 

Then what? are they going to close settings without an EYP? I think there will come a time that the people in the ivory towers will realise that the targets will not be met. Then they will suddenly announce that they recognise that already have a good, knowledegable workforce out there, you know the ones with academic qualifications at level 3 AND 10 /20+ yrs of EXPERIENCE, I believe there will be a time in the very near future that these people will be 'allowed' to partake in the EYPS assessment process without having to gain an FD or full degree. (Which I am sure will infuriate all those who have worked hard getting their FD).

 

 

'Includes all areas of the Common Core of Skills and Knowledge for the Children’s Workforce'

I am currently producing my portfolio to evidence that I do currently work to a Common Core of Skills and Knowledge in my role as a Foster Carer, my agency training dept have told me that this portfolio is equivalent to a level 2 standard.

 

I wish, someone somewhere would add the inital ETS to APL (Accredited Prior Learning) and recognise the value of EXPERIENCE & TRANSFERABLE SKILLS. Experience is self explanatory, and surely if you have lots of experience and/or level 4+ academic qualifications you would have the CORE skills and knowledge to be 'accredited' BASIC (level 2) Common skills and knowledge.

 

or is the above just too simple, and dare I use the words 'common sense'.

 

Peggy

[Gezabel]

[

 

or is the above just too simple, and dare I use the words 'common sense'.

 

Peggy

 

It is perfect common sense to me Peggy

 

I was just looking back at the exact details of my Foundation Degree. Anyone studying with the OU will recognise the dear old 'EYCLO's' and 'RLO's'. For those who might not know these are Early Year Core Learning Outcomes and Route Learning Outcomes as specified by the DfES. I cannot calculate the hours I spent on these! There were 12 EYCLO's and 3 RLO's each with several elements. For each element I had to give a written explanation of how my practice met the criteria and support this explanation with 'hard evidence'. For each completed EYCLO/RLO my employer had to sign to say she had read my explanations, seen the evidence in my file and she confirmed that it was true and an accurate account of my practice. In total I produced 156 elements all explained and evidenced!!!!

 

I just feel no matter what I do it isn't going to be enough and the goalposts will continue to move!

I welcome the EYFS as a cohesive document as opposed to the BTTM, CGFFS and National Standards but I have been wondering quite why, to achieve EYPS we have to meet the criteria for the whole age range?

 

I work in a pre-school and have no intentions of working with babies or changing jobs. OK no-one knows what the future holds and maybe I will change jobs but I know for sure it will not involve working with babies and yet to achieve EYP I would have to find a placement in a 'baby setting', take time out of my preschool to gain 'necessary experience' only to return to preschool and not use it!!!

 

Sorry I am waffling now so I will toddle off or maybe I am still ranting or maybe I don't know what I am doing or trying to say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cait]

There's no way all those childcare workers are going to 'up-skill' in time. I hear they are already piloting a scheme to make the status more achievable - which must be really galling to those of you who have done it 'properly' (If you know what I mean)

[Gezabel]

There's no way all those childcare workers are going to 'up-skill' in time. I hear they are already piloting a scheme to make the status more achievable - which must be really galling to those of you who have done it 'properly' (If you know what I mean)

 

Yes I heard that too (or maybe read it somewhere !) but if it proves to be the case I will be delighted

 

I can see the viewpoint that those who have gone via the only route currently availabe may feel a bit miffed but personally I don't share such a view.

 

I have learnt so much from my study and made valuable friends along the way and wouldn't have missed it for the world. If others can achieve EYPS without doing the same then I wish them luck but I am happy with the route I have taken (even though I am not actually doing EYP!!!)

[Guest]

That is what happened with level 3, I studied 2 years and worked hard to achieve mine, 2 colleagues took an equivalent qualification a year after me that took 1 year and they are level 3 - that annoyed me that it took me 2 years to do the 'same' qualification, then this year another colleague has just recently passed her level 3 with an agency, an assessor that came to the setting every so often and ticked boxes -the standard of her assessing was questionable!

 

Now here's the thing... I am so proud of myself undertaking a degree and gaining confidence and knowledge to further myself up the ladder to a level 4 then, 5 and nearly 6 (BA (Hons) (in June) but Lo and behold it will still not be enough - after all it is not an EYP or QTS :wacko: :rolleyes: so yet still more study is needed, all this time I am doing day-to-day paperwork for the setting I am in (like many of you) - and my colleagues are saying 'WHY' we can get the jobs you can get with our level 3 :unsure:

 

It is all so demorallising I am really fed up with it......a friend recently put the icing on the cake when she got an advertised level 6 job......she is a level 3 but at the interview was deemed suitable which I am sure she is...but why have we all studied so much - what for?

I think the government will down scale the qualifications when they realise they cannot meet the criteria for the workforce and where does that leave some of us.....I feel let down really I thought I was keeping ahead of the game but I don't even know what game it is anymore? Yes I will always have the experience and be a graduate but my faith in the early years workforce is diminishing by the second!

[Guest]

Geraldine why no EYP for you...if you don't mind me asking?

[Cait]

After taking 6 years to do the Open University Foundation Degree in Early Years, plus running a Preschool, undertaking a Quality Assurance scheme for the Preschool, taking on board the learning and staff training implications of EYFS all at the same time I realised I'd missed 6 years of my son's last years at home with us (He's away at Uni now) because I'd spent them in front of my monitor, I'm not doing any more study before things 'shake down' a bit. If I could wind the clock back 6 years I definitely would - I was already Level 4 HND qualified and I should have left it at that for the time being.

[Guest]

Oh Cait I feel the same....my family have been so supportive with all of my studying and devotion to my job...I am finishing the degree in June and that is it.....and I am seriously considering a change of career.