Charging Top-up Fees

[hali]

We have had the same funded child come to us after the cut off...afraid they have to pay for that term if they want to come to us.

[Inge]

We have been told that we are not allowed to charge for any child if they are entitled to the funded place reguardless of when they start with us, quote " where an eligable child joins a provider after the Head Count Day the family cannot be asked to pay for that place and it will only be funded from the following term"

 

on questioining our council said this is to be a country wide thing worth checking out? Our council does an independant audit at intervals to check that this is being done, if not we lose funding!!

 

Inge

[Guest]

The same applies to Stockport Inge. We cannot charge for a child who had been funded eleswhere and then comes to us after the cut off date. We had a child leave shortly after half term last school year and we had already had his funding. We kept that although he didn't actually take up a place elsewhere. They had moved out of the area completely and he was due to start school in September. On the other side we had a child arrive part way through the term and we got no funding for him, but we weren't able to ask for fees. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

Linda

[Guest]

hi all,

we too were told that we could not charge parents joining us after headcount for the sessions. we were told that the CHILD had receive the funding as was therefore entitled to a free place.

 

Saying that, we have in some cases contacted their previous provider and ask for some of their funding to be transfered over to us. This is entirely down to the individual group and its up to them if they wish to do it, we have had one group reimburse us one said no, we didn't charge, so even though i had to increase staff to cover ratios as we were at the limit, i receive no money but had to still pay the wages.

We have not been asked ourselves as yet, so we have kept funding after a child has left.

 

it is the most annoying subject this funding, one day they might get things sorted.

 

Oh, and if the child attends 3 sessions for 13 week say i claim for 39 sessions 3x13, think am LEA allows it???

We do not currently charge the extra, my last committee told me parents would not be happy, but now got new committee and they have agreed to introduce it from January 05 - about time, worked out we lost over £2500 last year not doing it.

We have some parents who currently pay for all their sessions costing over £150 per half term, so when their child receives the grant and gets 5 free, i cant see them complaining about paying for the others.

[hali]

We worked out we lost over £4000...........

[Guest]

at the end of the day the government shout loudly about all the money they put into childcare!!!

 

we should not subsidise their glory, especially as they have been asked sooooooo many times to look at and revue the low salary, how this affects staff turnover etc.

 

if parents complain about the system ie: parents pay for any time which is not funded, I refer my parents to THE GOVERNMENT, I suggest they talk to a local MP or write to the chancellor No 11 Downing street - of course they never do, but it does help them to realise that it is not the preschools fault if "free" isn't exactly what the government means.

 

Peggy

[Rea]

I've just been working out how much we could be losing Will email Tony and co in the morning

[Guest]

Hi

I've just downloaded those invoices, Peggy and am going to pass them on to my Treasurer - they look good. this funding however is becoming a pain in the you know what. We have just had a child go after three weeks, so he was in the headcount time. We have been told by our LEA that we can keep three weeks worth of funding for him, but that it is up to his next setting to apply to us for the remainder of the funding which we would then pass on to them. We can do this after we have had the second payment, sometime in early November. We have now to decide if we are going to pursue the parents for the money we will lose for the rest of this half term, as you say it could be quite a lot and why should we lose out because a parent decides to move their child on a whim.

 

With regard to the child starting after headcount time - yes we've got the lot this term - I have again been told bby the LEA that as long as we have the Parent Declaration Form signed, they will add the child to our list and pay us for them, as long as they have not been grant funded anywhere else. if they have we have to claim back from the other setting.

 

It is one big minefield and guess who the losers usually are - yep us. Will anyone ever sort it out properly.

 

mobbsters

[Beau]

Keep reading through this topic and I must admit it all sounds like double dutch to me. I'm glad I'm in Scotland - our system is much easier.

[hali]

Think i might join you Beau........

[Rea]

Hi, our DW came today, she told us we should charge top-up fee's and has given me a leaflet to give parents which explains why the top-up is necessary. The leaflets are from Surestart/EYPDC, both names are on the leaflet.

[hali]

oh excellent thankyou Rea will get some of those....

[Guest]

Thanks Rea,

 

I downloaded this document from the surestart site everyone should find it interesting.

 

Peggy

[Guest]

oops didn't attach, try again.

Peggy

[Guest]

question 7 Does the government support more flexibility in how parent access their free entitlement?

 

part of the answer says

LOCAL AUTHORITY SHOULD ALLOW PROVIDERS TO CLAIM THE FULL AMOUNT OF FUNDING IN RESPECT OF CHILDREN ATTENDING FEWER THAN FIVE SESSIONS PER WEEK SPREAD OUT OVER A LONGER TERM.

 

This should help some of you who's LEA will not spread the grant beyond 11 weeks.

 

Peggy

[Rea]

Hi Peggy, I cant open your link. The leaflet has Birmingham EYPDC on it, so not sure if it's a nationwide thing. I will try to put it onto the computer (I know I promised not to do this sort of thing, but I'm feeling grown up!)

[Rea]

Sorry, it appears carrier pigeon might be quicker. Scanner in total denial of it's existence, perhapes if I sneak up on it......

[Sue R]

Sorry, Rea, I managed to open it!!

 

Very useful, Peggy! Have printed it out to take to my old setting who I know are experiencing some funding problems and have never charged top-ups before. Thanks again

 

Sue

[Rea]

I've finally bought this to the attention of some parents at todays AGM, options are :-

Pay £2 - £2.50 per week over a year to cover the short fall

I dont make any plans for the weeks when we dont recieve grant

We shut for 6 extra weeks a year (HORROR from all present )

 

The extra money can be used to help with the recruitment of a 5th member of staff as parent rota isnt working.(actually none existant)

One committee member said if parents have to pay for sessions they will just leave and go to nursery where they can get full time for free. Helpful as usual!!

Dont know what the outcome will be yet, but it looks highly likely that no top up fee will be charged, committee look happy to lose over £1000 per year.

[Inge]

wish I could offer more help but as always commitee hold the final say (unless they are like mine and support the team!! actually life is easy at present!)

It will be ok while funds are there to support it but they it may eventually end up in deficit, ( we has £3500 loss last year because of this) and end up collapsing because of lack of forethought. I assume the nursery is LEA one which is open for the extra time anyway - we are lucky in the fact that ours are not open for more than the 11 week terms.

I have had 1 parent refuse to pay - so we have given all the option. If they want the extra 6 weeks they pay, if not the child does not attend, gives parents the choice, any income for the 6 weeks is better then none.

Choice can also depend on if you are a feeder for a particular school, parents often want thier child to start school with a friend and stay because of that. we are a feeder to one school but more than half of ours go to about 6 different ones, covering a very wide range of area. Our support is all from "word of mouth"

Some will leave they always do, anything for free reguardless of the quality, but not all. A small amount each week relating to the number of sessions (eg 50p per session per week) is the way we went and this is working.

but if the commitee say no nothing can be done , they are not the ones who will have the problem of no funds , as they will have moved on by then.

 

Inge

[Guest]

My understanding from the DFES is that the NEG money CANNOT be used to subsidise any extra time over the 2.5 hrs per session. Therefore a committee who doesn't charge for this time is offering FREE childcare.

 

I don't like the term Top-Up because this makes it sound like the parents are subsidising the grant ( if you see what I mean)

 

If extra time is not paid for by the parents, the only people subsidising the cost of the extra childcare are the Staff, through low wages.

 

Peggy

[hali]

we tell parents they are paying a top up fee because they are paying the difference between the government paying ofor 33wks and us opening for 39 wks so those 6 wks difference is a top up, we also charge on top of that an amount for SUNDRIES which included an extra member of staff (for accreditation)...in all it works out about £25 per half term per child.

[Rea]

I totally understand the need for it, but with a committee who are scared of upsetting parents over £2 a week I dont hold out much hope. Just wait til April, it'll be 3 years since I had a pay rise, and if they bring out the old stuff about not being able to afford an increase they might well find themselves looking for another playleader. And I'm sticking to my guns this year!!

[Beau]

Oh Rea! If only you could've been at my last committee meeting when I was trying to advise that the payrise they were offering was too much!!!

 

Does that make sense?? Committee and payrise of extortionate proportions???? :wacko: And I turned it down!

[hali]

Oh Beau

[Guest]

Before I start I will admit I haven't been able to read the previous posts (computer for some reason is playing up, or it might be the alchole I have consumed!!!) We charge a top up fee of £1.50 per session attended as we are open for 3 hours. We only claim for the sessions the child is attending. The parents have the choice of paying for the extra weeks at the end of the term that the vouchers do not cover or withholding their child from pre-school. This has only happened once before, but and it is a big but I do spend alot of my time chasing late payers.

 

As to a payrise, we get one every year but it has been known to be 1pence yes 1 pence an hour!!!!!!!!

[Inge]

Rea,

I am not surprised at lack of wage increase, anything for cheap childcare.

I had great problems only to discover the funds were in the account but they did not want to spend them...changed now!!

Threat of leaving worked wonders, and for last 3 years have had a decent rise for all .. probably will only be small rise from now but current committee realise that good childcere is what they want and to get it they have to pay....

looking back it must well over £1000 you are losing each year (6 weeks wages & hall fees & extras, not counting the extra time each day.)In the end their children lose out with reduced resourses and new equipment, which is where top up fees help. we also reduced hour to just 2.5 each day - and this allowed us to open 2 sessions a day and has worked well.

(Many of our families are able to claim the money back not sure but childcare tax credit I think all I know is they need signed reciepts for the payments made.)

 

Inge

[Rea]

Thanks Inge, come April if money isnt forth coming I'll be off. Had enough of being a cheap resource for mom's who want to go to the gym. One of the main reasons given for no increase lately is I will have to pay tax. Not their problem is it?? Would they have to contribute?

As to child tax credit, I imagine most families get it, so I dont see why they cant claim the childcare cost, I'll look into that one.

[Guest]

Hi Rea

They wouldn't have to pay tax but if you come into the National Insurance payments, which you would, they would have to make an employers contribution. This is what is probably putting them off!!

Linda

[Rea]

Well, always nice to know when you're valued!