Ratios

[Inge]

help please.. Not for me but a friend...she feels committee are under staffing.. help decide if they are...

 

18 children, 5 under 3yrs and 13 over 3yrs.

How many staff would you work out?

 

Inge

[Guest]

We've always used a points system 6 points under 3's, 3 points over 3's. A max of 24 points per staff member. Working on that ratio I would say 3. Personally I would want 4 staff members but who am I??!!

 

Bet its a bit stressful working with those numbers.

[hali]

i would say 3 staff 1:4 for 2 1/2 and 1:8 for 3yrs but again would be much happier with 4 staff

[Guest]

2-3 year olds is a ratio of 1:4, so 5 under 3's (assuming they are between 2 and 3) = 2 staff

3-5 year olds is a ratio of 1:8, so 13 over 3's = 2 staff

 

I would insist on 4 staff members. Maybe the committee needs reminding that these ratio's are the MINIMUM requirements!!

[HappyMaz]

We've always used a points system 6 points under 3's, 3 points over 3's. A max of 24 points per staff member.

I really like this system: it makes it much easier to calculate rather than counting different ratios for different age groups! Would say no fewer than 3, but we always have four members of staff with no more than three under threes in a group of 18 children.

 

But of course if one of the staff members was qualified at level 6.... sorry - I'm not even going there!

 

Maz

[Guest]

Def. minimum of4 members of staff until one of your two's is three

[Smiles]

4 staff

 

1 staff member with 4 2 year olds

1 staff member with 1 2 year old

 

1 staff member with 8 over 3

1 staff member with remaining 5 over 3

 

We work out that if a staff memeber has one two year old she can not have any more than 3 children even if they are over 3.

 

smiles

[narnia]

yes, i would work it out at 4 staff as well

[Beau]

It was my understanding that ratio's shouldn't be mixed, which is what the points system does. Effectively with this you are saying that one under 3 and 6 over 3's are being looked after by one member of staff - 7 children in total. Personally I think this is too many.

 

What you can do is count some of the over 3's in the under 3's ratio:-

 

4 under 3's - 1 member of staff

1 under 3 + 3 over 3's - 1 member of staff

8 over 3's - 1 member of staff

This still leaves 2 over 3's so clearly a fourth member of staff is needed.

[Guest]

I thought it was a ratio of one adult to every 4 children under 3 years and then one adult to every 8 children over 3 up to 8 years old.

 

So 5 under three would mean 2 staff

 

13 over three years would also mean 2 staff.

 

FOUR in total!!

[Guest Wolfie]

I agree - the answer is four!

[Guest]

I really like this system: it makes it much easier to calculate rather than counting different ratios for different age groups! Would say no fewer than 3, but we always have four members of staff with no more than three under threes in a group of 18 children.

 

But of course if one of the staff members was qualified at level 6.... sorry - I'm not even going there!

 

Maz

[Guest]

sorry, don't know what I did there, I was trying to ask HappyMaz a question!!@$ Anyway hopefully this will work: I am just about to start Foundation Degree so miles away from Level 6, but just wanted to know what happens when you are level 6. Does the ratio change?

[Guest]

I agree with 4 as per smiles' post.

 

My understanding is that were there 11 x over 3's and 5 x under 3's it would look like this:

 

Staff member 1: 8 x over 3's

Staff member 2: 3 x over 3's and 1 under 3 but CANNOT EXCEED 1:4 RATIO

Staff member 3: 4 x under 3's

TOTAL STAFF = 3 and TOTAL CHILDREN = 16

 

I'm off to try the points thingummy. Back soon!

Edited September 10, 2008 by Guest

[Lucy P]

I agree definately 4

[Guest]

Nope, the points thing doesn't work for me using Inge's numbers from her original question. Using the points it says a total of 69 which means 3 members of staff but it is definitely FOUR!!!

 

I did used to use the attached sheet to explain it to my staff and help calculate. Any use?

Blank_Sessional_Doc_for_working_out_ratios.doc

[HappyMaz]

sorry, don't know what I did there, I was trying to ask HappyMaz a question!!@$ Anyway hopefully this will work: I am just about to start Foundation Degree so miles away from Level 6, but just wanted to know what happens when you are level 6. Does the ratio change?

Well (takes a deep breath). Talking about children over three in any registered early years setting, the EYFS states:-

 

Between the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant, and defined by CWDC) is working directly with the children, the following requirements apply:

 

■■ there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

■■ at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification (as defined by CWDC).

 

I'm not sure how this works when there are children under three also present: presumably the 1:4 ratio still applies. It just makes things more complicated to work out. And I should hasten to add that I'm certainly not advocating a 1:13 ratio for children this young.

 

Until, of course successful completion of the degree/EYPS or QTS confers three extra sets of arms that enable practitioners to comfort a crying child, change another child's nappy and help do up a third child's shoes whilst writing up an observation. Oh and another pair of eyes for the back of the head so as to facilitate global room monitoring whilst carrying out all these tasks...

 

Maz

[Guest]

Hi everyone

 

In reply to the ration question my answe would be 4.

 

I have another question about staff qualification ratios! Hope I'm in the right place.

 

I am a little confused about level 2's. When the statutory framework states 50% of your staff should be qualified to level 2 does that mean "hose present with the children on a daily basis"or just 50% of your listed staff ? This may seem an odd thing to ask but I can't find this question asked any where else.The reason I ask is because in our setting we have a 3 older ladies that will not study for level 2 but have a wealth of experience and are excellant with the children. They kind of mess things up as far as the whole 50% thing on a daily basis is concerned. Our numbers of children are low and all my staff are contracted for a minimum of 2 sessions a week.It's starting to cause a ripple as they don't feel valued and I would always offer extra session to qualified staff.

 

I have read and reread the EYFS framework booklet and I need to be double sure.

 

All advice and suggestions gratefull received with thanks

 

P.S. this is my first posting hope I've done OK!

 

Ginge99

[Guest]

Well (takes a deep breath). Talking about children over three in any registered early years setting, the EYFS states:-

 

Between the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant, and defined by CWDC) is working directly with the children, the following requirements apply:

 

■■ there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

■■ at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 qualification (as defined by CWDC).

 

I'm not sure how this works when there are children under three also present: presumably the 1:4 ratio still applies. It just makes things more complicated to work out. And I should hasten to add that I'm certainly not advocating a 1:13 ratio for children this young.

 

Until, of course successful completion of the degree/EYPS or QTS confers three extra sets of arms that enable practitioners to comfort a crying child, change another child's nappy and help do up a third child's shoes whilst writing up an observation. Oh and another pair of eyes for the back of the head so as to facilitate global room monitoring whilst carrying out all these tasks...

 

Maz

 

still not sure if I am doing this properly, but here goes. Thanks for answering my question, I am still chuckling about your answer. I have a really funny vision in my head now of a very qualified Pre School Leader running around with lots of pairs of arms!

[HappyMaz]

P.S. this is my first posting hope I've done OK!

You did it perfectly, ginge99 - although I don't know the answer to your question. Have you asked your early years advisory team? Its an interesting question!

 

Maz

[Guest]

Hi, I work with 50% qualified every day but not sure if this is the correct answer.

[Guest]

You did it perfectly, ginge99 - although I don't know the answer to your question. Have you asked your early years advisory team? Its an interesting question!

 

Maz

 

 

Thanks for your replies, they are my first!!

 

I will check with my EY advisory team tomorrow.

 

Ginge99

[Lou]

Have to agree with 4 staff. Not sure the points system works if it indicates only 3 staff are needed.

[hali]

welcome ginge99 i thought it was 50% overall but could be very wrong.....

[SazzJ]

Def 4 staff

 

How are the other's getting 3?

 

ratio is 1:4 for unders 3's and 1:8 for over 3's

 

There is 18 kids

 

5 whom are under 3 so

 

4 children equals 1 adult and 1 child left over

 

13 over 3

 

8 children equals 1 staff so 5 left over

 

the one under is then placed with another adult along with 3 overs therefore leaving 2 overs so therefore another member of staff

 

Don't want to sound too harsh but ratios are really are my bug bearer

[Guest]

Just as a matter of interest where does the point system come from?

[Inge]

Many thanks.

 

I worked it out as 4 , because of the mixed ratio bit.. points never work as my friend found to her cost when Ofsted turned up and decided she was understaffed...

 

we use a similar sheet to LJW for our ratio/places to make sure we ok, but as we don't have under 3 not really a problem, just makes sure we don't over book places.

 

I will pass on your replies.. seems to be a bit of a difference of opinion on it..

 

Ofsted were no help, when she rang they would not give a definitive answer!

 

Thanks again will pass on your replies

 

Inge

[Guest]

welcome ginge99 i thought it was 50% overall but could be very wrong.....

 

Thanks hali for the welcome.

 

the 50% qualified to level 2 is just not clear (to me any way). To me it makes sense that 50% of your daily staff should be level 2 but it is upsetting my loyal, committed, long serving but not interest in studying staff who feel they are not valued (they are!). I'm trying to keep everyone happy, it's such a juggle!

 

The problem for me is that I have too many staff now our numbers are low and haven't got the money to make people redundant.

 

 

Ginge99

[lynned55]

Hi Ginger,

I am in same position as you. I have 7 staff with 5 in every day. Out of the 7, two have no level2 but have over 14 years experience each and as many if not more other qualifications (1st aid, H&S, SENCO L6 etc) plus numerous LEA courses & workshops. Sorry waffling away here,

 

I've never actually asked anyone but have always counted it as 50% of that shifts ratio, not overall. If it was overall and you had 4 staff in on one day, with only one qualifed then surely you would be breaking your requirements. I can understand that you are trying to keep everone happy but it is not you making hte rules is it?

 

However OFSTED did agree to one of them running the pre-school in an emergency (even tho' she had not had a 'fit person' interview, providing our committee were agreeable, as she had so much experience. But this was a couple of years ago and not sure if they would do so now.

[beth1]

I would also say 4 staff.

 

I am lucky to have a good committee which lets me have 5/6 staff in per day. So depending upon ages of children we tend to have 4 staff with the children and me 'floating' around the room or getting on with managing the setting. From next week when we have 6 staff member on 1 day this will become my 'office' day to autucallly spend time doing paperwork. The other 3 days will be on rota or if the needs arises doing urgent paperwork.

 

 

 

Beth