Pay Rates For Level 5/6

[Lucy P]

I interviewed a candidate today for a nursery nurse position who has FD and is currently taking the long route to EYPS.

 

I would love to offer her a position, but have no idea how much to pay her. I asked her what she expected but she didn't know.

 

Can anyone give an approx hourly rate?

 

I am aware of the fund which can help with me with this and also the incentive given. I would like to offer her the position by friday so any guidance would be very gratefully accepted!!

 

Many Thanks

[hali]

tricky that one as a supervisor in the same position ... (do i want to divulge this info) im on roughy!!!!! £11.00 per hour!!! ...

 

but in my defence i am supervisor and do a lot of outside hours !!!!!!

Edited November 21, 2007 by hali

[HappyMaz]

tricky that one as a supervisor in the same position ... (do i want to divulge this info) im on roughy!!!!! £11.00 per hour!!! ...

 

but in my defence i am supervisor and do a lot of outside hours !!!!!!

Please don't feel you have to defend your pay - you're worth every penny. Obviously they've got a bargain given your experience and qualifications.

 

I was just wondering if there are any openings available?

 

Maz

[HappyMaz]

This is a thorny issue, Lucy.

 

I'd love to know the answer but I am sure there is no recognised 'going rate' for an EYP - unless you work for an organisation such as Sure Start or one of the large chains who have an established pay scale.

 

I have a couple of Level 3 qualified staff who would love to progress to the Foundation Degree and one who already has a degree who I would love to get her EYP status in due course. However we are a small rural pre-school and I just could not afford to pay them anything like what they could earn elsewhere once they are qualified.

 

I shall watch this thread with keen interest!

 

Maz

[hali]

trust you to get on my case first

[HappyMaz]

trust you to get on my case first :wacko:

Moi? On your case? Never!

 

I'll admit that I am a little concerned about my two deputy supervisors who are new members and are no doubt lurking in the shadows reading and taking everything in...

 

Maz

[Lucy P]

Thanks maz and hali, yes very tricky not sure where to start! i'm replying on my mobile phone as have no internet access, hopefully i can reply in full a little later!

[anita.kennedy]

Dont know if this will be of any help but I am working towards EYPS and at the end of my training in approx two years. I know that having had discussions with course friends, the general feeling is that we would be looking to be earning around £12 per hour. I know that there is funding and incentives now but you must be able to sustain what you are going to pay when the incentive is no longer offered. Hope this was of some help.

[HappyMaz]

Dont know if this will be of any help but I am working towards EYPS and at the end of my training in approx two years. I know that having had discussions with course friends, the general feeling is that we would be looking to be earning around £12 per hour. I know that there is funding and incentives now but you must be able to sustain what you are going to pay when the incentive is no longer offered. Hope this was of some help.

Not much room for improvement for your salary then, is there Hali? Mind you, if you were paid for all the 'overtime' you don't claim for, presumably you'd be off to the Caribbean for Christmas!

 

Seriously, yes there is funding for groups who have candidates going through EYPS to support the training and salaries for the whole staff team. It will help me to reward those staff who increase the level of their qualification and pay them something like what they're worth in recognition of the improvement in standards of provision brought about by the team implementing their learning in the setting. (that all sounds very Government-spin-like, doesn't it?)

 

However, as you say it is unclear how long the funding will be available for, and I have to consider my group's long term ability to pay these enhanced salaries - especially given the Government's view that parents should not have to pay a premium for this higher quality care and education for their children.

 

Maz

[hali]

i know Maz have thought of that already - ohh well lucky i dont just it for the money isnt it

[Guest roopal]

hi lucy, maz and hali

 

i run a small urban pre-school and do a fair few unpaid hours. I have qualified teacher status (primary but not early years) and recently gained EYPS but it hasn't made any difference at all to my pay - I am on £8.50 per hour. we can't get any extra funding because we are only sessional and don't have many children either....

 

roopal

[HappyMaz]

hi lucy, maz and hali

 

i run a small urban pre-school and do a fair few unpaid hours. I have qualified teacher status (primary but not early years) and recently gained EYPS but it hasn't made any difference at all to my pay - I am on £8.50 per hour. we can't get any extra funding because we are only sessional and don't have many children either....

 

roopal

This is another inequity in the system isn't it? We are technically full day care because we do three lunch clubs and an extended afternoon - so we can access this funding. I think I'm right in thinking that the quality premium will be available to groups based on their local authority's own critiera for granting the funding - perhaps you could lobby your local authority to see what they are going to do about this inequality of opportunity.

 

Maz

[Lucy P]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Unfortunately the lady phoned me the following day to inform me she had been offered another position

 

To be honest we probably could not of stretched to £12 an hour even with the funding

[Guest]

Hi everyone

 

I am new to this forum and have just taken a major risk in making a career change from being a high level executive secretary to becoming and EYP. I am watching this post like a hawk as everyone on my course is very concerned about what sort of payscales they will be entering into on completion. It is difficult because smaller private settings are often maintained by parental contribution and fees and I think even children centres with government funding may find it hard to pay graduates, however, if the whole of Early Years standard is increasing as the Government say it is,then surely it must be reflected in staff salaries - all across the board. Finally the social mind is realising what a highly skilled and hugely important role early years carers/teachers/professionals play in moulding young children in their formative years. I have heard of settings where there are only young girls employed with no qualifications, at minimum wage who shout at the children and roll their eyes constantly. It really breaks my heart for those children who have to spend long days away from their caregivers in those types of environments, not to mention the parents who are usually paying high rates to keep them there. I have also seen, however settings with compassionate committed staff, but still they are not paid their due.

 

I must admit that I was shocked to see a Deputy Manager here being meek about exposing her salary at £11 per hour. This was a basic wage that I would not go below when I was temping as a secretary, and I can assure you that my work there was much less valuable. I think Deputies and Managers should be on at leas t £15 - 20 per hour and the staff under them in corresponding increments. Even this is less than alot of skilled managers in commercial corporations whose work is no where near as critical to the future and health of our society.

 

Although I am becoming increasingly aware that when I start working after completing my EYPS I may be on less than I was as a secretary (my husband will go mad to discover this!) in my heart I know that I am doing something worthwhile and if necessary I will continue to campaign for the importance and value of the profession wherever necessary.

 

Wow, that's me off my soapbox now! Just want you all to realise how precious and important you all are!

 

Lots of Love and I look forward to getting to know everyone.

 

Rainbowbrite xxxx

[Guest]

Hear, Hear Rainbowbright Thank you for your inspiring first post, the early years sector needs people like you who has passion and principle. Hope you are enjoying your scout around the forum and I look forward to reading many more of your inspirational posts. Welcome aboard.

 

Peggy

[Guest]

Welcome Rainbowbright, and you are most welcome with an opening post like that!!

 

Good luck with your course, keep talking I like what you have to say (I am starting EYPS next year after completing the Ey FD)!

Edited December 19, 2007 by Guest

[dublinbay]

How refreshing to hear what you have to say Rainbowbrite, especially from someone relatively new to the profession.

Good luck to you and welcome to the forum.

[Guest]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have been in hibernation for christmas but have popped out to track this topic. Very interesting about different pay.

As I have already stated in another post I am leaving my pre school in July because I will have a foundation degree and they will not be able to afford me. (not only reason). I am planning to continue to my 3rd year and then hopefully complete short route to gain EYPS.

I have chosen this route to further my career but also to increase my wages.

I love my job working within Pre School but cannot see how I can stay. Pre schools will never be able to afford to employ someone with EYPS, without a major boost of government money.

 

I know the funding for 2yrs olds and increase of hours from 12.5-15hrs will help, but this alone will be taken up in paying existing staff for their extra hours and extra staff to cover the ratios for the 2yrs olds.

 

We did look into applying for funding and could get £2000 a year, but only for 2 years. After that the pre school would have to find the extra money on their own.

 

My biggest concern with pre schools being expected to have an EYPS is not only how they will find funds to pay for them, but in doing so, how it will then affect the pay of all the other staff.

 

By the way, I am a manager of a pre school, with 8 staff, 45 kids, full daycare on £8.16 per hr, work 25hrs a week paid and the usual 10hrs a week unpaid.

 

Is it too much to ask to be paid what we are all worth. We have to deal with other agencies, child protection issues, stress, government, paperwork, paperwork, paperwork but most importantly we are building the foundations, health and wellbeing of the children of the future

 

Net x

(Off my soapbox now and will pop back into hibernation for another few days)

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE XXXXXX

[Inge]

Pre schools will never be able to afford to employ someone with EYPS, without a major boost of government money.

 

My biggest concern with pre schools being expected to have an EYPS is not only how they will find funds to pay for them, but in doing so, how it will then affect the pay of all the other staff.

 

Hate to say it but there is a way and the one we will be expected to follow!! Doesn't the EYFS has child ratios for employing EYPS in direct contact with the children allows for 1:13 in the settings...(appendix1- 6)

hey more money available as you employ less staff!!

 

Now we all need to grow six arms and legs and be in 4 places at once !!

 

Inge

[HappyMaz]

Hate to say it but there is a way and the one we will be expected to follow!! Doesn't the EYFS has child ratios for employing EYPS in direct contact with the children allows for 1:13 in the settings...(appendix1- 6)

hey more money available as you employ less staff!!

 

Now we all need to grow six arms and legs and be in 4 places at once !!

 

Inge

It is almost an irresistible logic, isn't it Inge? Or are we just being cynical?

 

All I can say is that it definitely won't happen in my setting - I could never justify taking such measures to increase my own salary. Which is all well and good - but obviously I can't guarantee that when I sell up and move on the next owner won't take a very different view...

 

I understand the logic that - as a practitioner with equal status to that of a qualified teacher - managing groups of 13 children shouldn't be a problem. I'm just not sure that having EYPS is going to provide those six arms and legs you'd require to cope with the runny noses and the trainer pants and the two year old whose favourite thing in the whole wide world is to pour water out of the jug, into the cup and watch it fall over the top of the cup an onto the table and then onto the floor so he can figure out how water works...

 

I'm sure Beverly Hughes will enlighten us in due course!

 

Maz

[Guest]

It is almost an irresistible logic, isn't it Inge? Or are we just being cynical?

 

All I can say is that it definitely won't happen in my setting - I could never justify taking such measures to increase my own salary. Which is all well and good - but obviously I can't guarantee that when I sell up and move on the next owner won't take a very different view...

 

Hi Maz, Inge and others who have joined in on this topic.

 

I have to agree with your views on ratios Maz and Inge and also that it is not in anyway fair that levels 2 and 3 should in anyway suffer in order to take on an EYP. I think that seems to defeat the whole purpose of putting EYPS in place to begin with, which is among other things to raise the level of the profession for both the people working within it so that they are paid according to their professional worth, but also for those in multi agencies that interact with preschools so that the profession of the Early Years Practitioner becomes recognised and rewarded for the incredibly important role that it is.

 

When looked at this way, it does seem that only an injection of government funding into Children's Centres, as well as Private and Voluntary settings will be necessary to raise the pay and conditions of ALL staff in Early Years so that the whole profession comes in line with mainstream teaching. However, I am reluctant to accept that this is the only solution, somehow there must be other ways, what about local companies that are keen to get involved with the community supporting Early Years Settings, I am sure that there must be a way that the whole sector can raise its profitability in order to pay staff what they are worth, and the first step is in believing they are worth it, and in this respect I have to say that I do think the EYPS will help. Having a role in Early Years equivalent to Qualified Teacher Status can only benefit all levels of Early Years staff in the long run as all pay scales will have to eventually come into alignment with that baseline.

 

Why is it that we live in a society that doesn't blink an eyelid that a software programmer can command £50 to £100 per hour when the people moulding young minds for the future are hesitant to admit they are worth more than £8 or £9phour??? Isn't it strange? We all know that how a child develops socially emotionally and cognitively from birth to five is absolutely crucial to their overall growth and development as an individual and numerous research studies have shown that positive intervention in the early years can prevent so many social problems such as crime substance abuse and antisocial behaviour. Yet early years practitioners still undervalue themselves. Committed early years practitioners are worth their weight in gold I reckon!!!

 

Here's to a New Year full of recognition for the EY sector!!

 

Love to you all - happy new year !

Rainbowbrite xxxx

[Marion]

Hi Rainbowbrite and welcome to the forum.

 

 

The guidance over pay on the CWDC site is that pay is up to each individual setting and that there won't (at the moment ) be a set salary. Not very helpful sorry.

 

Q: If EYP status is equivalent to Qualified Teacher Status (QTS), does this mean that pay and conditions will be the same as for teachers?

A: EYPS and QTS are both professional statuses - but they are not the same. Consequently employers may set the same or they may set different pay and conditions for the two groups of employees. It is worth noting that pay and conditions are matters for employers rather than the CWDC.

 

http://www.cwdcouncil.org.uk/qualification....asp#EarlyYears

 

just to add a qualified teacher's wage starts at 20K and I need even more arms Maz as my ratio will remain at 1-30... crazy isn't it?

Edited December 31, 2007 by Marion

[HappyMaz]

I think the issue of parity of status between EYPS and qualified teachers is going to be very interesting to watch. It would be easy to assume that if these two very different job functions have equal status then the salary expectations would be the same - however I'm not sure that anyone would advocate that unless the two roles of two individuals were the same. I certainly wouldn't expect to earn the same as a teacher in my role of running a pre-school. However, I do agree with Rainbowbrite that £8 - 9 is not a realistic hourly salary for someone with that level of experience and qualification.

 

However, there will be a huge challenge to private and voluntary pre-school groups who have had to register as full day care because they offer lunch clubs and extended sessions when they have to have an EYP on board. On the one hand the Government say that standards must improve and that graduates leading practice is a key way of achieving better outcomes for all children. On the other they say that parents should not be expected to subsidise this improvement in quality through higher fees. The Transformation Fund (or whatever it will be called in its next incarnation) has paid for lots of us to undertake EYPS and there is funding available to uplift the qualifications of those settings who recruit an EYP to the team. However I'm not sure there will be sufficient funding to cover enhanced salaries for EYPS (and for other staff members who will naturally want to be rewarded for their continued professional development!).

 

I agree with you Rainbowbrite that there must be another way and I think it will take some good old fashioned creative thinking to get us over this not inconsiderable hurdle. The difficulty will be to find ways to make groups sustainable in ways that take account of the natural diversity of the sector: being an EYP in a Children's Centre will be a very different prospect from that in a pre-school that operates from the local village hall and whilst both groups will need to attract high calibre EYPs to meet their obligations each setting's ability to respond flexibly to the local 'market' will be very different indeed.

 

Oh, and one final thing. My computer-techie other half doesn't earn £50 an hour, but he does earn a lot more than the token salary I pay myself - so in effect he is subsidising my business rather in the way you suggested Rainbowbrite! And whilst parents might complain at paying £4 an hour for childcare I know that at least some of them will be paying someone £8 an hour to do some cleaning or ironing. Perhaps that is one of the reasons behind the sector's low morale - the lack of value placed on the work we do by society in general.

 

Perhaps a useful new year's resolution would be to work hard to improve the status of our workforce by celebrating what we do and how well we do it.

 

What a thought provoking start to 2008: thanks Rainbowbrite!

 

Maz

[Marion]

The CWDC also that EYPS will be clarified in September with the launch of EYFS so watch this space.

 

 

The government promised parent "affordable high quality" childcare which I'm afraid this is going to reflect how much settings can charge and consequently how much practitioners are paid.

 

Maz you say you wouldn't expect the same pay as teacher but in effect you are performing a very similar role. There is currently a thread on TES "should secondary teachers be paid more than primary teachers?" Makes you think?

Edited December 31, 2007 by Marion

[tess]

I've read all this with great interest as although I am only in the first year of my Foundation Degree (and should be writing an assignement at the moment), already a favourite discussion amongst my class is what we will do at the end.

 

It's really sad, but most of us will be lost from the early years sector - if we continue we will be able to choose between EYPS or PGCE. ( I attend a University which offers both- on enrollment we were given a sheet plotting the path's to each)

PGCE is the favoured option - even the course tutor's push this, as teachers are the main role models they use constantly and talk favourably about the course.

 

Not one person on my course wants to do EYPS.

 

I love early years with a passion - but I will have to choose QTS. Sorry....

( I have to admit I don't want to work 8am - 6pm in a childrens centre or a nursery . 48 weeks of the year and then have take lots home, for not a lot). Will be sad to leave my pre-school, but for my own young families well being will have to do it.

[westie]

This is something which interests me greatly also. I am currently in the 3rd year of my degree, intending to do EYP next year.

 

I live in a small village in Norfolk with approx 5 day nurseries who obviously as of 2015 will need an EYP. However i know most of the settings, and as far as i am aware none of the practitioners are interested in EYPS. In fact i don't blame them its a really hard slog and as many of us know alongside work and family you have to really want to do it.

 

So actually my first question is- will there even be enough people qualified to this level to cover the number of settings?

 

At the moment i have quite a well paid job (all thanks to FD) but i have worked hard for what i have and consequently expect to be paid accordingly, as should all other early years practitioners (regardless of their setting). I personally feel that the money will not be there to pay professionals what they deserve. For example if my old nursery had to pay EYP (lets say £20,000) i am sure it would close them down!

 

I would suggest that other practitioners with EYP would not want to except jobs that are poorly paid? and again we will end up with a shortage of EYP's.

 

I dont feel the government has thought about this in enough detail and i really am quite fearful for the consequences.

 

I currently work with the advisory service but miss the children and hands on side a lot! However at the moment the sufficiently paid jobs are simply not available.

 

As with everyone else i guess we just have to wait and see but i expect the government will have to react to the difficulties as they arise.

[HappyMaz]

Maz you say you wouldn't expect the same pay as teacher but in effect you are performing a very similar role. There is currently a thread on TES "should secondary teachers be paid more than primary teachers?" Makes you think?

Marion - I'd agree that the roles are similar, but in my job I'm not expected to teach children to read or write (although I have to say the demarcation lines on this aspect of the job are becoming very blurred indeed!).

 

I suppose my comment was intended not to give offence to long-experienced, well qualified teachers out there who may well be wondering where we are coming from in demanding equal pay!

 

There is a definite element of what Rainbowbrite was saying about lack of self-esteem and value in what we do, however: perhaps this is a result of coming up through the pre-school system and gaining my qualifications on the way. The view of pre-school groups as being staffed by a group of "mums playing with the children" persists til this day and even though I would always challenge that thinking when applied to any member of my staff I have to admit that this sort of view does cloud my perception of my own role!

 

Ooh what a confession to start the year off with - I'll need to reflect on that for a bit, I think!

 

As for the discussion about secondary teachers being paid more than primary teachers, that is just a mind boggling proposition and one I don't feel equipped to enter into - what a can of worms!

 

Maz

[HappyMaz]

I think you are quite right about the various issues regarding the funding of settings and how they will be able to afford to pay EPS what they are worth.

 

The Government has done a remarkable thing, when you think of it. They have attracted large numbers of people to undertake EYP training without being able to give them a firm offer of higher salaries in the long term, and some would even say without an idea of the type of job/career which might be available! It would be really interesting to do some research into why people have undertaken EYPS and what their long term aspirations are.

 

Certainly I can't afford to pay myself anything like £20,000...

 

It would be very worrying indeed if, having gained EYPS, candidates quickly find that settings are unable to pay salaries that reflect their status and then leave the sector in order to train as teachers. As you say, westie this would then lead to a shortage of EYPS for early years settings and we'll be back to where we started.

 

We just need to make sure we keep raising our worries in the hope that 'they' will listen and think about the issues involved!

 

Maz

[Marion]

Sorry I didn't make myself clear Maz but my point there was that the poster thinks the older the child the more the "teacher" should be paid as their job is more difficult. So from that theory it would follow that those working with the youngest children be paid less? Personally I value highly the dedication of pre school practitioners who's hard work makes my life so much easier and wish there was some way that this could be acknowledged (financially). Unfortunately the cynic in me worries that EYPS will be used to keep childcare costs low as many already many CC practitioners are being employed on different pay and conditions to teachers while doing the same job.

[HappyMaz]

Sorry I didn't make myself clear Maz but my point there was that the poster thinks the older the child the more the "teacher" should be paid as their job is more difficult. So from that theory it would follow that those working with the youngest children be paid less? Personally I value highly the dedication of pre school practitioners who's hard work makes my life so much easier and wish there was some way that this could be acknowledged (financially). Unfortunately the cynic in me worries that EYPS will be used to keep childcare costs low as many already many CC practitioners are being employed on different pay and conditions to teachers while doing the same job.

 

Marion, how do you respond to that sort of argument? What arguments are in your armoury to defend the excellent job you do in the face of this criticsm - after all if you weren't there to teach the children the skills they need before they go off to secondary school what would happen then?

 

So does this thread on TES reveal (or just confirm) that in reality teachers suffer from others placing a low value on their professionalism wherever in the education system they work? What follows is a huge generalisation - please don't be offended anyone but this reminds me of the old "I look down on him" sketch - secondary school teachers look down on primary school teachers because they feel their job is more difficult and feel they should get paid more. But that's ok - the primary school teachers can look down on the early years teachers because their work has more status and they get paid more. We in early years just get a pain in the neck!

 

I know that in the past some primary teachers didn't value what early years practitioners do but I think that the Foundation Stage Curriculum meant that suddenly reception teachers especially have found themselves training alongside people from early years and have come to admire the work we do and recognise what we contribute to children's development as learners.

 

As I said before this is a huge issue and better brains than mine obviously haven't resolved it to anyone's satisfaction. Sadly I don't think you're being overly cynical in doubting the Government's motives at all - however as westie suggests perhaps it might just bite them on the bum when they realise what a radical lot we in early years can be!

 

Maz

 

PS: just re-read the first part of your post before pressing 'submit'. Perhaps your opening comment about the natural extension of the TES poster's views would be that those who teach the youngest children being paid the least is spot on. If so, then logically this would mean that if EYPS are paid "the going rate" then would the differentials need to be maintained? Primary school teachers might well ask for more, and then secondary teachers and so on. Talk about a vicious circle!