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Increase To 15hrs Entitlement


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Just wondered how other Sessional Pre Schools are feeling about the imminent increase to 15 hours (by 2010). What are other groups proposing to do? I feel that this could be the beginning of the end for Groups like ours. We meet in a church hall and can only offer 7 sessions of 2.5 hours maximum because the premises is used by other groups too. Any ideas? Looking for some sort of answers but at the moment can't seem to find a way around it, without closing. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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After your ofsted!you cant close!!!! :o What a waste,the children need you!

I havent looked into it i will admit and it may be more flexible then you think when it comes We can only offer 3 sessions to our just turned 3 year olds and they cant take 5 up until the september when we have room and altho parents hve complained thats how it is and they have accepted it.

Is there not a school you could move into? im sure others will be more helpful xD

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Hi Andreamay

There is a local primary school a mile down the road (we were initially set up 11 yrs ago to feed into them with the promise of being on their site at a later date.) However a few years ago when we approached them about possibly looking to find a portacabin to relocate on site we were told quite clearly that there is absolutely no room for a pre school! We felt very let down as you can imagine! Although they do see us as 'theirs' the only links we have is that most of our children move on to that school, and the reception teacher comes for a 'chat' for half an hour at this time of year before the new starters arrive.

Would we still be in the same position though if we were operating from a portacabin wouldn't we? I suppose we would have a few more sessions available to increase into?

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Guest Wolfie

I haven't got a lot to add at the moment other than the fact that you DO actually provide 15 hours worth at the moment with the number and length of sessions you provide, and, as Andreamay says, I would think that there's likely to be quite a lot of flexibility in how you provide those 15 hours, simply to accomodate groups such as yours which obviously provide such high quality provision and meet the needs of the local community.

 

I can see that providing the 15 hours in you existing format would obviously mean that the numbers of children that you could provide that for would no doubt decline but at least your group would be "healthy" numbers and money wise? Unless of course there are other nearby groups who could "scoop up" the children that you couldn't take? But hopefully you've got time to do a SWOT analysis and action plan to overcome any potential threats!! How about approaching the school again and voicing your concerns...youi never know, their reaction may be different this time?

 

Please don't panic just yet! I'm sure there must be hundreds of groups in the same situation as you and surely the overall arrangements for providing the 15 hours MUST take account of the individual circumstances of groups!

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Guest toddleo

We too are sessional in a sahred premesis, and have wondered the same as you. I think probably we will offer an additional hour lunch club or something like that, but to be honest we still have quite a long time to worry about that...worrying about EYFS and Ofsted first!!

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We are sessional pre-school in a church hall.

 

We currently open 9.15 - 11.45am. Having spoken to NEF Audit team we will be able to just up our hours to 9.15 - 12.15pm thereby providing that extra half hour daily and thereby increasing our hours to 15 per week.

 

So thats what we shall do. Luckily our hall doesn't have a high usage during the day so we are able to do this, but for those who have other groups waiting to come in after them I can see it will be difficult. :o

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Not able to fit in the hours to 15 unless we close afternoon sessions, thereby not offering a place for up to 20 children a day!! currently we would have no places left for any intake in September this year if that were to happen.

Staff would lose hours and pay and leave so this would be less stable, too many other things to cover really... have tried lots of ideas for solutions and end up going nowhere

 

Inge

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Guest MaryEMac

We too will not be able to increase our hours. At the moment, morning sessions run from 9 - 11.30 and afternoon sessions run from 12.15 - 2.45. We have to leave the premises at 2.45 to allow the out of school club to set up so we have no chance.

 

Mary

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Oh I'm so glad it's not only me. Feeling like we're in a constant battle all the time trying to jump through hoops which are getting smaller and smaller. When will someone realise that one size doesn't fit all and succesful pre schools and nurseries are being pushed to the limits. We are going to have to do some 'big' thinking on this one, if we come up with any answers I'll pass them on, incase someone out there is in the same position as us.

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Not able to fit in the hours to 15 unless we close afternoon sessions, thereby not offering a place for up to 20 children a day!! currently we would have no places left for any intake in September this year if that were to happen. Inge

So this would be a real case of a measure which is intended to increase childcare provision and choice actually decreasing what is currently available.

 

Its a wacky world we live in, isn't it? Nothing is ever as straightforward as it might seem - a real case of "it seemed a good idea at the time".

 

I guess people will be looking at breakfast clubs and the like to increase their hours - especially if they are on or near school sites where resources can be pooled. How long do you have between morning and afternoon sessions? Even then I don't suppose you can handle two groups for lunch, can you?

 

Unless of course you're lead by an EYP and then you can have a 1:13 ratio. But lets not go there, shall we?

 

Maz

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How long do you have between morning and afternoon sessions? Even then I don't suppose you can handle two groups for lunch, can you?

 

Unless of course you're lead by an EYP and then you can have a 1:13 ratio. But lets not go there, shall we?

 

Maz

 

we have 15 mins between , no time for 2 lunch groups, and cannot go full day so we could have sessions run consecutively and no break.

 

we do have staff member just starting her hons yr of the degree and will do eyp so will have someone to that level in 18 months time.. but none of us would work 1:13 with this age group as we feel it is insufficient for the needs of the children in our care, one wet and one crying then what happens to other 18 children! (20 per session max for us)

 

Lookslike we will be stuck between the 'devil and the deep blue sea'

 

Inge

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Lookslike we will be stuck between the 'devil and the deep blue sea'

 

Inge

Have you spoken to your Early Years people? I'd be very interested to know what they say. And what about your parents - how do you think they're likely to react (although I realise its a way off yet!).

 

Maz

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voiced concerns as have lots of groups...as it is a while off parents we have now will not be affected , so not really worried!!

 

all we can do for now is get on with it and hope that we can eventually sort it out.

 

Inge

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Do we still have to have an hour between sessions? I know last year we did (worked in full dayc care then) but I'm not sure if it's changed to half hour now, if it has this will make it easier for us to extend our sessions.

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If all the children are leaving the building and being replaced by others in the afternoon we have been told that you have to allow enough time for children to be collected and to do any preparation for the afternoon. We have to decide ourselves. We have some children that stay to lunch so we allow 30 mins for them to eat. We can now let have lunch in the funded time. We may do that when the entitlement increases. We are going to be allowed to give entitlement over 3 days so funding will be claimed on an hourly basis. I am now unable to give all funded children 12.5. hours untill they are 4 and most parents are prepared to wait so I shall be in the same situation hopefully. I have a waiting list for extra days so parents can see where their child is on the list and that seems to satisfy them. If they keep asking I remind them that can use their entitlement at 2 different settings. :o

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we have 15 mins between sessions have done for a couple of years now so rules must have changed a while ago re the hours break. So long as you can cater for late collectors and setting up, Ofsted are happy.. but you MUST have a break of some kind...I think 15 mins is the minumum they recommend.

 

Inge

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Inge - Do your children stay all day?

At my old place(full daycare) we had 15mins change over time, it's just we had to have a hour between the funded sessions so if a child wanted two sessions in one day it had to be a minimum of 6 hours, it would be much better for us now if we no longer had to have the full hour between, at my new setting it's session, so could mangage 6 hours per day but not if the children had to have the hours 'break from learning' making the day 7 hours ~ sorry a bit waffelish~ but I know what I mean!!!!

 

xx

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As i've mentioned before we are on the trial for the 15 hours entitlement - it could mean a big change to the way we all think about our daily routines.

 

We may have to stop thinking of ourselves as offering sessions. The 15 hours really isn't the biggest hurdle the flexiblity wording has a bigger effect as it means parents buy your time by the hour.

 

the wording on the leaflet i give have to give out to parents reads : you will be able to use the hours flexibly. You can stick with the current plan of 2 1/2 hours for up to five sessions a week if you wish: but it might suit you better to have a different pattern. For example 3 hours every day or five hours on three days or nine hours on one day and three hours on each of two other days.

 

Don't panic we don't have to open 9 hours.

 

So far on the trial - I have found 90% of the eligable parents take the full 15 hours and spread it as 5 days at 3 hours or some stay 3 half some days and two hours the others.

 

We have honestly had a term with huge learning curves, but we begin to feeding back to our LEA in September

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Inge - Do your children stay all day?

At my old place(full daycare) we had 15mins change over time, it's just we had to have a hour between the funded sessions so if a child wanted two sessions in one day it had to be a minimum of 6 hours, it would be much better for us now if we no longer had to have the full hour between, at my new setting it's session, so could mangage 6 hours per day but not if the children had to have the hours 'break from learning' making the day 7 hours ~ sorry a bit waffelish~ but I know what I mean!!!!

 

xx

 

No not allowed as sessional, but could come for afternoon session quite legally if someone picked them up and returned them 15 mins later!! sessional must have the 15 mins with no children, so they cannot have the consecutive sessions..

 

in our area in full day care they can have 2 consecutive sessions so 5 hours a day funded, have done for a while now.

 

Buying by the hour would still mean losing hours open and supporting less children than we already do.

 

Inge

Edited by Inge
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This might be a really silly question, but if the entitlement is so flexible when would the staff have their lunch. As we are sessional, the staff currently have half an hour lunch break inbetween the am and pm sessions (have to clear away from am and set up for pm as well as eat lunch in the half hour) Would it mean that the stff would have to stagger their working hours? We are all part time, so some of us work mornings some work afternoons, and some work both.

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Yes - we are having to be very flexible as staff, when we exit some children our ratio's dip and therefore we can have breaks etc.

 

(for example today I lose 10 children at 12 and 13 stay for lunch - that means 2 staff cover lunches and two can have a break)

 

 

Before you ask - yes I do spend my whole time onratio's and rota's - but now we have done it for a term I am really relaxed about September.

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  • 2 weeks later...

just spoted this topic.....

 

my big worry when I first heard about the introduction of 3 hour sessions was that some children in nurseries will be doing 6-7 hour days to fit in 2 sessions (and possibly a lunch break) in one day which is longer than a typical school day

 

Tess, you say the 15 hours can be used flexibly... great this gets me thinking....

 

we are a sessional group and can only use our church hall 4 days a week but in theory we could open our 4 morning sessions for the maximum 4 hours that sessional care allows and offer 16 hours a week and parents can then claim their full entitlement with us.

under present regulations even though we currently open for 13 hours a week (3 1/4hrs each morning) parents cannt claim their full 12.5 hours because the 13 hours we provide isnt 5 seperate 2.5hr sessions

 

when will we know when the 15 hours will be introduced?

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  • 5 months later...

Is there anybody out there who is in an authority already delivering the 15 hrs entitlement? I work in a Nursery which is part of a primary school and our hours fit in with the school. We run 2 sessions, one from 9am to 11.30 am for our older children 4yr olds. and one from 12. 45pm to 3.15 for children just turned 3yrs. The gap between the two enables us to clear up and set up and visit the main school staff room for lunch (which our Head activily encourages) for approx half an hour. "Directed hours" will be affected as the nursery teacher will be having 6hrs child contact compared with 5hrs for all other year groups. The Nursery is seen as very much part of the school and we enjoy using the school hall for our PE lessons and take part in such things as the combined KS1 and Foundation Stage Christmas production. If the 15hrs is "flexible" how can we establish routines such as our PE lessons and "Letters and Sounds" activities if children are attending at different times? Please share your experiences.

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Hi there

 

In my area we have been using the 15 hr entitlement for approx 1 year (I think!). For us it has simplified things, as we always ran 3 Hr sessions 9 - 12 so 15 hrs for 5 morning sessions. However we also run a lunch club from 12 till 1.30 and some children come 4 mornings a week and 2 lunch clubs. We are able to use the funding very flexibly.

 

Due to our opening hours it means that realistically we do just have to charge for lunch clubs if extra payment is needed.

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We are just about to embark on how to implement this as I am in an authority who is piloting the scheme and so have to have this up and running by September at the latest. Up to date the Head and I have looked at running the sessions from 8-45 till 11-45 and 12-15 to 3-15. As we are expected to offer full days we are thinking that the 'dinner' children will have to go to the dining roon at about 11-30 and maybe that could be a 'lunch club' where they pay as it won't be part of their free entitlement. Their payment would cover the cost of supervision. (As yet we don'tknow if we can do this I am trying to make contact with another school who is already doing this to find out how it works). We then have to get the rest of the children out and the others in and turn the nursery round in half an hour whilst keeping up 'quality provision' and have a lunch break and all with no extra funding. It may mean we get to the staff room which at present we don't but at the expense of never having a lunch time together where we can talk and plan. Planning together looks as if it will be a thing of the past as my NNEB's are only contracted from 8-30 till 3-30. I can see the mornings will run much as normal only longer but afternoons will be a nightmare as we have children coming in for about 25mins now. I can't see our parents getting them in having had a lunch for 12-15.

I will be very interested in the replies from this thread.

Anne

PS We have been advised that the children will either come 5 mornings, 5 afternoon or Mon, Tues all day and Wed am OR Wed pm, Thurs and Frid all day and who is going to sort all that out? I haven't had an answer and although I am Head of nursery I have to do it on 0.5!

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We are a sessional pre-school and exist independently from the primary school in whose grounds we are situated.

 

We are moving to 3 hour sessions after Easter - 8.50 - 11.50 am and 12.30 - 3.30 pm.

We do not have any children who stay all day. We have 2 afternoon sessions for our 4+ children who eat their lunch (supplied by parents) in the primary school dining hall (timing for this remains the same).

 

Parents chose these times from a questionaire and staff were also consulted. The only foreseeable problems we have is that when staff stay all day there is not much time to turn activities around and tidy up, eat lunch and do whatever. Most days there is different staff morning and afternoon but on 2 days they remain the same.

 

We can only see how it works and can change it again if necessary.

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Still on my first cup of tea this morning so my brain not quite awake yet :o When does the 15 hr entitlement have to come into place?

 

At the moment we are open 9 - 3......2 1/2 hr sessions with 1 hour lunch club in between

so....9 - 11.30 morning

11.30 - 12.30 lunch (not all children do this)

12.30 - 3 afternoon

 

would this mean our sessions should be

8.30 - 11.30

11.30 - 12.30

12.30 - 3.30

or something on these lines?

mrsb

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