Thumper Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Wondering if anyone can help with. I have a little boy who is 4 in August still in nappies, mum says she's spoken to the HV who suggests we all leave potty training alone and wait until the summer hols to address the issue.... We've gone along with this despite not really wanting to, as he was sitting on the toilet with us. He is now just soiling his nappy and not telling anyone (as a younger child would). Anyhow he is a strong willed child who likes nothing more than playing alone. He will not join in any activities so it's hard to move him on. He can count, 1 more 1 less, knows letter sounds, alphabet etc but lacks physical and PSED. We moved on to scissor work but yet again mum said no, pencil work got another no. She's now saying he's very young and we need to leave him just to play as she doesn't want him stressed by things he can't do...... Part of me thinks I should call his HV and discuss any advice given to mum, part of me thinks the HV wouldn't give such advice knowing he starts sch in September...and a little voice says leave it he's only got a few more weeks ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 School will not change him, unless he has a diagnosed medical condition as far as I am aware. Someone from the school sector might be able to confirm this. Think I would be ringing the HV too. Supporting this child with his personal care should be a priority in my humble opinion, but obviously very difficult when you have not got the parents on your side. Are the school aware of these concerns yet, I think I would be liaising with them too, to aide a smooth transition for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Why on earth wouldn't school change him if he is wet or soiled?? However, I know what mum says, but I'd pop him on the loo every so often and see if he 'performs'. As to pencils and scissors, is mum proposing he is physically kept away from these...and if so, how are you to manage that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Sorry I don't think I worded that well. I am sure they will change them if they have an accident in their pants/knickers, however I am sure they wouldn't be changing nappies unless a medical condition. I know when I spoke to two schools recently on children coming to them in September, and my saying they may need support with wiping, they said they would not do this. I know I don't agree with this either. I suppose the schools expectation is that children coming to them will already be clean. The two children in my case are only four in August and physically tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 This is an old discussion.....................if schools take them, schools must clean them and deal with any accidents/nappies etc....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Yes it is an old discussion but still happening I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narnia Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 That was sort of my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LullabiesHythe Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 My first reply upon the forum - here goes - I would be ringing the hv, liasing with the school and their SENCo, maybe have scissors within playdough time along with a pencil (to make indentations in the playdough) so specifically not designated activities. As for changing at schools - this is still ongoing throughout many schools, they encourage independence and do not change - my friend's daughter comes out wet most days as they have not changed her - maybe after speaking to them all ask them if they would mind arranging a meeting with yourselves and mum so that she has an idea of expectations upon entering reception 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upsy Daisy Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 My suggestion would be to ask the mother's permission to invite the HV, area SENCo, his reception teacher and the school SENCo to a meeting with you and his parents to discuss a transition plan.You can use this meeting to make sure that the mother has realistic expectations of the care he will receive in school, the school staff are aware of his needs before he arrives, to agree on how he should be supported in your setting now. You can also discuss his development, make sure everyone is aware of the difficulties he has in the setting and at home and consider whether he should be referred for a neurodevelopmental assessment.It would be a shame for him to start school without everyone communicating sufficiently to ensure that his needs are being met. He sounds like a child who very much needs the people caring for him to communicate and plan effectively. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 School will not change him, unless he has a diagnosed medical condition as far as I am aware. Someone from the school sector might be able to confirm this. Think I would be ringing the HV too. Supporting this child with his personal care should be a priority in my humble opinion, but obviously very difficult when you have not got the parents on your side. Are the school aware of these concerns yet, I think I would be liaising with them too, to aide a smooth transition for him. Hi Fredbear School are fully aware and are on mums case in attempting to get her to potty train as so as possible. I'm concerned that if we agree to not continue to potty train without clarification from the HV that we are neglecting his needs and his right to become an independant, confident little boy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 Why on earth wouldn't school change him if he is wet or soiled?? However, I know what mum says, but I'd pop him on the loo every so often and see if he 'performs'. As to pencils and scissors, is mum proposing he is physically kept away from these...and if so, how are you to manage that? Hi Narnia I don't keep him away from anything. Infact the day mum came in about scissor work he chose to do snipping! Typical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredbear Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Hi has she had a bad experience with him of something she has tried to introduce and so now is saying no to anything that might set him a challenge or a sense of failure and possible upset. It sounds like mum could do with support too. Does she appear happy for him to start school in the Autumn term, and is she aware she can defer if not. Maybe the pressure of him starting school is overwhelming for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 blimey i despair sometimes! In the past year i have found myself having this conversation 3 times! Is she aware of how much he will not be able to be assessed on at school (pse/health and self care /physical etc) is she prepared for him to be under-achieving in these areas (sound like she must have been teaching him other things ...so this might be the way to go) there is also lots of evidence that children who are late being trained take much longer and can continue to have issues for some time. Is she prepared for his friends to tease him about it? does she feel this is fair to him? .....i'm afraid the HV's at the moment in this area do not seem to be supporting toilet training at all but the school nurse may well need to get on the case...good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodlands1997 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 We have never had such problems with potty training as we have done the last few years it's crazy! Personally, a lot of ours have been parents either not wanting their children to grow up or to be perfectly blunt - they can't be bothered to sort them!!!! When we have shown them how behind they are in terms of the eyfs this has generally hurried them along but at the end of the day there's only so much you can do and when the HV isn't on board either it makes it even worse! Our local schools phone parents if the child has an accident so they can come and change them, which I think is plain wrong. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upsy Daisy Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I'm concerned that if we agree to not continue to potty train without clarification from the HV that we are neglecting his needs and his right to become an independant, confident little boy I definitely think you need to have a conversation with the health visitor re short term goals. There may be issues at home of which you aren't aware that prompted them to give this advice. The difficulties you've described could well be the result of a developmental disorder and in my opinion you need to have everyone involved communicating effectively in order to ensure that you are supporting him in the most appropriate way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 We have just had a very similar situation which prompted me to write a new nappy and toileting policy. We are a school with a nursery so the policy was for the whole school. I basically outlined our expectations based on EYFS development . The policy stated that if a child had not starting potty training in nursery by 48 months then parents would be asked to contact HV for advice and come in and fill out a toilet training programme stating how they intend to start training and what support etc we would give so that home and nursery are working from the same song sheet ! The assumption was that they need to start training unless they could provide written evidence from a health professional that there was an issue with toilet training such as developmental delay etc. if this was the case then instead we would develop a care plan to meet their needs enabling as much independence as possible for the child. As a school our policy says that we expect them to manage their own toileting in Reception but if they can't then we would change them.... I think we have a duty of care to do that. For me it's a case of sorting out if there is a genuine issue and if not then they need to start potty training for the child's sake. The new policy worked for me as the parent read the policy, came in and we filled out a plan of action together (we have a standard form to simplify things) and he was out of nappies and dry within the week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 We have just had a very similar situation which prompted me to write a new nappy and toileting policy. We are a school with a nursery so the policy was for the whole school. I basically outlined our expectations based on EYFS development . The policy stated that if a child had not starting potty training in nursery by 48 months then parents would be asked to contact HV for advice and come in and fill out a toilet training programme stating how they intend to start training and what support etc we would give so that home and nursery are working from the same song sheet ! The assumption was that they need to start training unless they could provide written evidence from a health professional that there was an issue with toilet training such as developmental delay etc. if this was the case then instead we would develop a care plan to meet their needs enabling as much independence as possible for the child. As a school our policy says that we expect them to manage their own toileting in Reception but if they can't then we would change them.... I think we have a duty of care to do that. For me it's a case of sorting out if there is a genuine issue and if not then they need to start potty training for the child's sake. The new policy worked for me as the parent read the policy, came in and we filled out a plan of action together (we have a standard form to simplify things) and he was out of nappies and dry within the week! Hi Griffclan5 Thank you for you message. Would you mind sharing you policy? I'd love to have a read and tweak it to fit our setting. I'm finding many parents 'miss the boat' on the potty training front and that's how we end up in this situation. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 Upsy Daisy - I have asked about home life and had some 'excuses' as to why he's not to be asked to do anything.... I think I will contact HV today and ask for something in writing to back up mums requests. Funny thing is he's not an only child. His older sibling was pushed to do everything quickly, it's quite bazaar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Hi Thumper, I've sent you a copy of the policy, hope it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 Hi Thumper, I've sent you a copy of the policy, hope it helps Griffclan5 thank you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 You are not doing your job by leaving it just because you only have a few weeks. You are the professionals here tell mum what your plans are for him, if you plan in scissor work then do it I don't send a child outside just because mum has said she doesn't want ....going outside today. You need to plan some good transition with the school they need to come and see him in your setting. If you look at his data he is sure to be behind has he made any progress since being with you? If not then perhaps you should be asking your Senco to have had a look at him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hi Suer Thanks for you reply. The little boy has progressed throughout his time with us, in fact he was even using our toilet until mum appeared requesting we left this area as it was making him stressed. This child goes to a child minder for longer hours than he is with us, the childminder is happy to not have to do anything with him. Mum reduced his hours with me as I was continuing to potty train and encouraging eating fruit and veg (which she also didn't want as she prefers to give him purée) The transition to sch is something we do really well and this process started at Easter. Yesterday when we went to visit sch, said child through a tantrum because 'mummy said he just plays at preschool and doesn't have to do things he doesn't want' It's getting harder by the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 this mum is suffering from a severe case of second child syndrome imo! ( i assume he didn't have any issues at birth? long awaited baby? unexpected??) Does he have to go to school in september? perhaps she should defer and you could work on the relationship with her to sort out the problems before he goes in to the classroom? She's going to make his life really tricky at this rate 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Oh dear, this sounds worse and worse. Poor little chap. I think you should be sounding some alarm bells somewhere, very loud alarm bells and at the very least providing the school with documentation that will help them to sort whatever support this little boy may need. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 This could be a case for social services, criteria for 'this child is not going to progress as he should because of parenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 26, 2014 Author Share Posted June 26, 2014 That's my thinking Suer. Contacted the health visitor today to confirm if she has given the advice to mum. Once I've clarified this I will be able to make an informed decision on what to do next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upsy Daisy Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 You have made the mother aware that you would like to contact the HV haven't you? She needs to be a party to all of the communication regarding her child so that she feels consulted and supported throughout the process and chooses to cooperate rather than feeling threatened and withdrawing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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