Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) ******* Updated ********** Hi, well i had the worst nights sleep last night, a huge migraine ensued and i was rather poorly with it, needless to say i had to go to work this morning because it would have seen like i was avoiding the situation had i not gone in. i went in and have briefly spoke with the owner expressing that i understood that she had to investigate all allegations and i respected that but that i would be contesting it if it was going to result in a disciplinarary especially when one of the staff in question has clearly told me that she made it clear to the owner i did not have the full story until the friday. so i await for it to be investigated, but at least i have lay my cards on the table about how i feel about it. i told her i stood to gain nothing in knowingly leaving it till firday, and since i spoke with accused staff member on the thursday about other issues then why would i omit something so vital, especially if i was meant to know everything about it by then. i think in her heart she knows that i did not know about the full impact of the allegation until friday, but she has to investigate it and remove personal issues... i still think, well rather know she will struggle to prove that i knew about it in its fullness, but i will have to wait till she has spoke to both staff concerned. so i guess im still stressed out, but having spoke a bit more about my views on it all, and the fact that i will contest any disciplinarary i feel a little clearer.... plus the three hours sleep i have just had has helped things thank you all for your invaluable advice, i have really appreciated it, what a brilliant support network you have all been for my recently. Dawn Hi, My bad week from last week continues.... basically i am now going to be made subject of disciplinarary action (something i am clearly alarmed by). The allegation that a member of staff forcibly sat a child down was brought to me in writing on friday by two people. now at the start of the week of receiveing the letter i was made acutely aware that one member of staff had had a bad day because of the actions of another member of staff, and i basically told her to put it in writing (because i am fed up of hearing about the member of staff doing things and getting away with them because no one will put it in writing.), at this time she did not tell me that the member of staff had forcibly sat a child down, she did tell me that another member of staff had input on the day, i later asked this other staff member (rightly or wrongly) That if she had views on the day and she felt strongly about them then she should put them in writing. They clearly put things in writing and i dealt with them once i received the letter (basically i handed it over to the owners) because i did not feel able to deal with it since me and this member of staff do not have the working relationship we should. now that it has all been investigated the person who has been accused is saying that since the incident alledgidly happened on the monday then why did it take till friday to be raised, fair point... this was then asked to the two people making the allegation, the first person said that she had told me on the tuesday.... but i do not recall her doing this and i would like to think had she told me a member of staff had forcibly sat a child down that i would have remembered, and dealt with it immediatly. the second member of staff said that i advised her to put the complaint in writing. but that i stressed to her it was her choice.. i did do this. but since my previous experience of managment and the answers i frequently get from the owner is to ask everyone to put things in writing, i thought i should cover myself by asking them to put it in writing. now the owner is going to discipline me because alledgidly i knowingly left a member of staff working in the nursery when i had been told she forcibly sat a child down.... but i was not told this, and i feel so wronged. i can not prove that i was not told especially when one member of staff said i was and the other has said she briefly discussed it with me but that she did not go into details. i truely 100% can not remember the ins and outs of the converstaions, i talk to many people each day, but i know in my heart if i had been told she forcibly sat a child down then she would have been dealt with. i acknowledge that in hindsight i should have: 1) sort clarity immendiatly from the first member of staff and then acted on it. 2) not have approached the other staff member to put it in writing, but in my mind i felt i was covering bases for myself and the nursery. the written complaint was dealt with promptly, so in a sense i am at a loss as to why this is disciplinarary action for me.... yes, a slapped hand, a firm word, but not a note on my employment record. i have frequently asked for support with this member of staff and have not reeceived it. yet when the s**t hits the fan i am the one who is going to get punished..... the owner today told me that i was a disapointment and she was disapointed in me, and that she felt i had walked all over her.... she then briefly told me it would lead to disciplinaray action, leading to me getting emotional and crying, she left at this stage and was not seen for the rest of the afternoon. i may have been wrong, clearly my managment skills have been put into question, the fact that i have had no support for so long stands for nothing. i feel so stressed i do not know what to do...... can i contest disciplinary action especially when the incident once received in writing was acted upon promptly ( i may add i received the letters on my day off, i had just gone in to open nursery, yet i acted on them, even on my day off) i feel so broken right now, please give me any advice you may have. thanks Dawn Edited June 16, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sienna Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I'm sorry to hear about your situation Dawn, I haven't got any advice but just wanted to say good luck. I hope everything works out okay for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upsy Daisy Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Oh Dawn, that's terrible. You must feel awful. You have tried to do everything right - that is obvious from all of your previous posts. I'm no expert in employment law so I can't advise you. Are you in a union? If not you should have a look at the ACAS website for some information about disciplinary procedures. There are some very clear processes which must be followed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but had your employer sent you on any training in dealing with these sorts of situations? Do you have policies which clearly set out how you should deal with allegations like this? It doesn't sound like you are being treated very fairly. I really feel for you. Lots and lots of virtual hugs. Alison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blondie Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 poor you dawn - what you really needed was the owner to back you up - it is easy in hindsight to keep going over what should have happened - at the time you did what you thought was right. it is easy for the staff members to say they had spoken to you and it had been left for few days before being dealt with.perhaps these members of staff should have made it more obvious to you what the problem was and what had happened - they should also have asked for time to discuss the matter with you at time convenient to you both so that neither of you were distracted by what was going on around you. i think the owner is being very unfair saying these things to/about you - is there anyone you can talk to -perhaps someone from outside - do you have outside support from psla, eys advisor -they may be able to put this into perspective and talk it through with you and say what your options are hope that is a help - keep your chin up and stay positive x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocisgood Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 oh Dawn, what a dreadful situation for you. I have no advice but sure someone will come along soon. Just wanted to send you a big hug and say will be thinking of you and hope that wisdom will come into any future dealing and the right solution arrived at. you hang in there girl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittycat1279 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) I echo everything people have said above. I wish I could help more. It sounds like you are in a terrible situation and it doesn't sound like the owners have been very professional in the way they have spoken to you. They haven't investigated it fully so should just be giving you the facts as they seem to have made sweeping assumptions! Speak to your union, they will provide support for you. Make sure you have wriiten an account of events from your point of view. Thinking of you Edited June 15, 2009 by SP61HJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 wanted to say "good luck" too - what a horrible situation. It sounds very unfair, If I was you, I would sit down and clearly write down as much info you can, any past dealing with this member of staff, how you delt with them, discussions with owners regarding this member of staff. I would also write down everything that happened last week (try to be factual and not emotional) If this goes further at least you have the fact written down, you can prove that you asked for help and recieved none! I don't know who you would be able to give you advice on your standing regarding contesting the action but speak to your development/improvement officer, they should be able to help in some way. xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Dawn, I am so sorry that you are going through this, I haven't kept up with posts lately but am I right in recalling that a while ago you told your boss that you may be giving notice? The reason I ask is that her comment ....QUOTE "the owner today told me that i was a disapointment and she was disapointed in me, and that she felt i had walked all over her.... "seems very subjective and I wonder whether this response indicates the real reasons why your boss have threatened disciplinary action. There are two ways to look at the facts regards alleged disclosure of the complaint.... 1/ proof that it was said to you 2/ proof that it wasn't said to you both, I think are unprovable, so the reason given for disciplinary action is unsustainable. Have you had any previous 'verbal' warnings? Suerly that is the procedure, verbal warnings first before full formal disciplinary actions, which should be done in writing and not initially threatened verbally. (hope that makes sense) I wonder if it is possible for you to have a meeting with your boss, have a representative with you, to ask her clearly to clarify how she would have expected you to respond to the situation, given the information the staff gave to you. Also there needs to be a clear policy and procedure under 'safeguarding' for staff to 'report' such concerns, and if the staff don't follow these procedures, it is they, not the person they are 'mis-reporting' it to, who should be repremanded. I would think that any 'witness' of intimidation / verbal / or physical abuse toward a child, should be reporting to the child protection officer according to the safeguarding policy, and all staff should know this procedure. You should not have to ask them to put it in writing, they should already know to do this. I do think that if you get a letter of disciplinary action that you should have the right to appeal it, and definately the right to have your version of events recorded as part of the 'investigative' procedure. As I said at the beginning I think there are complex conflicting issues here. I do hope, for your sake, that everyone concerned can remove subjective emotions and sort this out in a professional objective manner. best wishes Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 just wanted to offer my best wishes Dawn, sorry I can't offer anything constructive but couldn't just ignore your post... as others have said hindsight is a wonderful thing but never any blooming use to what has already happened! Good luck with it all though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 First off don't panic about your work record yet! This is an investigation for a grievance and may not neccessarily lead to a disciplinary action. It sounds like that is what the owner wants but without solid evidence that cannot happen - and you can contest any decision following the investigation and disciplinary meeting. Make sure you have the grievance and disciplinary procedures and that they are being followed. hugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Oh Dawn, that does seem unfair Try to get some advice from a union or an employment solicitor - you may have access to a legal advice line on your home or car insurance. I used mine years ago for a childminding issue and they were really supportive and gave me great advice (free!) at 10pm on a Friday night! You'll feel better for trying to get advice. Also, print off your posts on here - you've been seeking advice and support here for some time - and I wonder if reading back and reflecting on your posts will clarify matters, dates and conversations in your mind? Take care of yourself, hope matters get resolved soon. Nona X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 I spoke to her about two weeks ago about basically being at my wits end and that i was thinking if things did not change i would consider leaving.... but she was going on holiday so could not deal with it, and then she has come back to deal with all of this. Dawn, I am so sorry that you are going through this, I haven't kept up with posts lately but I am right in recalling that a while ago you told your boss that you may be giving notice? The reason I ask is that her comment "the owner today told me that i was a disapointment and she was disapointed in me, and that she felt i had walked all over her.... " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Thank you everyone for all your advice so far. unfortunatly we are not part of a union or anything else, we are all left to fend for ourselves, in what seems a dog eat dog world. i think printing off my posts on here is a good idea, though ultimatly hearing or not, i feel the owner has made her decision. Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Also, print off your posts on here - you've been seeking advice and support here for some time - and I wonder if reading back and reflecting on your posts will clarify matters, dates and conversations in your mind? thats a good idea! could be a good piece of evidence should you need it!!! xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmajess Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 You poor thing, I really feel for you. It's good you've got the forum to come onto with all the helpful wise words and listening ears. Hope some of it has been of some help. I was going to say that it would be a good idea to look back at your posts about this on here. Didn't one of your most recent posts talk about when you had first received the allegation and what you were doing about it? As far as I can remember it made it clear that it was the first you'd heard of it and you acted on it immediately. Even if the person had told you it prior to that, they can't have told you clearly, or it wouldn't have been the case that you felt you'd only just heard about it (if you see what I mean). Peggy makes a really good point - both sides are unprovabl, so it doesn't seem right that it could be followed through to that degree - I don't know about legal stuff, but it definitely doesn't feel right. I really hope this works out for you. It sounds like you're doing a really good job in an unsympathetic setting - well done and keep that in mind - you are doing a good job. Good luck - let us know what happens. Lots of love Emma x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valp59 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Just wanted to add my good wishes Dawn - a terrible situation for you. You should make sure you check your setting's disciplinary rules and procedures. By law your employer should have informed you of these! The business link website www.businesslink.gov.uk has some good information which may help. The owner should not be acting on a personal grudge and will have to prove her reasons for any action so make sure you know your rights. GOOD LUCK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mukerjee1 Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Dawn - some really good advice given by everyone. Difficult situation, not easy I know, but try to keep as collected as you have been, keep written documentation of any exchanges and try to arrange witnesses for any future conversations with your employer. Useful contacts already given, thinking of you and wishing you all the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Hi Dawn Sounds like some underlying issues here. Given your working relationship with this person, I think I would have acted in the same way, making sure the allegations were backed up with written letters and making a measured, considered response. I imagine you will be feeling somewhat unsupported at work. Make sure you get proper support from ACAS or the PLA or somebody like that. Take care, hope this gets sorted very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 Hi Dawn, Some really good advice on here (as ever) and I am not sure that I can add a great deal, however what I will say is this - you must, without delay, seek out advice from your LA on this matter. Your setting should have a Disciplinary and Grievance Procedure in place. Make absolutely sure that, whatever you do, you follow this to the word. It seems to me that much of what has been said regarding this case is "hearsay" which quite simply will not be upheld in a court of law. As many people have already said, the main thing to do is to make a note of absolutely everything that is said/done from here on in and include in your case notes any notes and advice that you have posted or received on this forum - it may turn out to be crucial evidence. If things get too much for you and you feel that unfair pressure is being applied to you, take some time out from work. Do not write-off the possibility of hitting them for "constructive dismissal" if you are made to feel that your position is made untenable by those in control. It seems to me that, from your posts on this matter, you are trying to do the right thing under very difficult circumstances - don't allow yourself to be the victim of those circumstances. Good luck, DDC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Dawn you can join a union whenever you want, no one has to say you can or can't. From memory I think PAT have the most early years members, try googling them (I think they have changed their name but you should still find them). Good luck with it all, it sounds like an awful situation for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rea Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Good grief Dawn, it never rains but it pours. Cant offer any help I'm afraid, just wanted to wish you all the best during this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquieL Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Dawn I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I can't add much to the good advice given already other than to reinforce that you must ask for the Disciplinary and Grievance procedures for your workplace, and ensure that they are followed to the letter by your employer. If they aren't you would have grounds for action against them, so they need to be very careful as to how they deal with this issue. The CAB may be able to help you or alternatively ring the ACAS confidential helpline, which is probably your best bet as they have a lot of experience of dealing with these problems: Monday - Friday 08:00 - 20:00 - 08457 47 47 47 Monday - Friday 08:00 - 20:00 - (Minicom users) - 08456 06 16 00 Saturday 09:00 - 13:00 - 08457 47 47 47 Also read http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2177 I hope that all this can be resolved soon. We are all here for you ((((Dawn)))) Just a thought Dawn, anyone can read this Forum when looking at this site, but I can move this into the Lounge which only members can access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I would just echo what everyone has already said Dawn. Don't try to tackle this by yourself - get immediate advice, ask someone you know and trust to be with you at any meeting regarding this matter and write it all down. Take care. xx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Jacquiel, please could you move this post to the lounge, thanks. also thank you for your advice. Dawn Dawn I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time. I can't add much to the good advice given already other than to reinforce that you must ask for the Disciplinary and Grievance procedures for your workplace, and ensure that they are followed to the letter by your employer. If they aren't you would have grounds for action against them, so they need to be very careful as to how they deal with this issue. The CAB may be able to help you or alternatively ring the ACAS confidential helpline, which is probably your best bet as they have a lot of experience of dealing with these problems: Monday - Friday 08:00 - 20:00 - 08457 47 47 47 Monday - Friday 08:00 - 20:00 - (Minicom users) - 08456 06 16 00 Saturday 09:00 - 13:00 - 08457 47 47 47 Also read http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2177 I hope that all this can be resolved soon. We are all here for you ((((Dawn)))) Just a thought Dawn, anyone can read this Forum when looking at this site, but I can move this into the Lounge which only members can access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacquieL Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I did it this morning, thinking it needed doing for you and you were probably at work. Take care Jacquiex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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