Over - Rough Child

[Cait]

We have a child at Preschool, who although only 2 years old, is as large as some of our 4 year olds. She uses her size to push the other 2 year olds about - physically as well as mentally. The consequence is that they are all scared of her and start crying if she comes close, even at snack time, so we have had to move her to be with the older children - and they don't like her either!. Parents who bring younger children along to drop of their older children with us are very wary of her.

We try to ensure that her play is well scaffolded by the adults, and we have tried to explain that her behaviour is unacceptable and praise the good behaviour - all the usual things. However, today, within 10 minutes of her arrival she had to be moved to sit on her own for a couple of minutes as she has reduced a big 4 year old boy to tears - she had him on the ground, sitting on him and pulling his hair! We talked to her after her 'time out' (or whatever people like to call it these days) and told her she wasn't being friendly, and that we are all good friends at Preschool.

I went to hang a coat up and when I came back she has a small 2 year old on the floor with her hands round her throat! There were 3 staff members in the room, I was hanging a coat and the other two were 'meet and greet' too, chatting to parents etc. Usual morning stuff.

This is not the first time she's been like this, as I say, it's been going on since she started last May - but not quite so 'severe' as this. Mum has a new baby due in April (Heaven help it), but although this child knows about it, she always looks surprised if it's mentioned.

So, we couldn't let this one go - luckily both parents came to pick her up at the end of the morning and were the first to arrive, so I took them into the other room to have a word with them.

Dad seemed to listen to what I was saying better than Mum, who said that she's never seen her be rough with other children. (hmm)

Now apparently, she has decided she's going to attend Preschool with her daughter for the next month or so, to see what she's like.

She's not approached me to ask if she can do this - just informed others outside Preschool, and word had trickled back to us.

I'm not averse to her doing this, but wonder how she's going to take it when we tell her daughter off in front of her!

[Guest]

How did Mum and Dad seem together? My gut reaction would be well is she seeing this behaviour especially the hands around the throat???

[HappyMaz]

I'm not averse to her doing this, but wonder how she's going to take it when we tell her daughter off in front of her!

I'll need to read your post again to have a really good think about this one Cait but my immediate reaction to this part of your post is to suggest that as soon as mum confirms to you that she is going to stay with her daughter at pre-school you have a conversation with her about how you will handle 'discipline' when they both attend together. Firstly you need to agree with her the capacity in which mum is going to attend: if she is going to be an observer only then she has to let you deal with unwanted behaviour (although obviously you might need to tell her in advance so that she knows what to expect). However she might prefer to deal with incidents such as those you have outlined herself, in which case I think it is still important for you both to agree a strategy beforehand, especially as you will still need to get involved in order to deal with any children the little girl targets.

 

If you have a family consultation form or something on which you record details of conversations with parents/carers I would strongly suggest that you write down the details of your conversation and get her to sign it. This way there can be no confusion about how you are going to handle this situation both whilst she is in the group and whenever she leaves her daughter with you. And there will be no way that she can say you didn't talk to her about it, either (and yes I know that sounds a strange thing to say but take it from me it can happen).

 

Sounds like you've had a bit of a day of it: I take it you've filled out all the incident forms etc and that the paperwork is up to date? Just as a precaution!

 

Maz

[Guest]

How did Mum and Dad seem together? My gut reaction would be well is she seeing this behaviour especially the hands around the throat???

I would be extremely wary of jumping to such conclusions. children often bite in anger or frustration and this is not something they are likely to witness an adult doing

[HappyMaz]

I would be extremely wary of jumping to such conclusions.

Especially given what you can see in your average soap opera these days!

[Guest]

We have a child at Preschool, who although only 2 years old, is as large as some of our 4 year olds. She uses her size to push the other 2 year olds about - physically as well as mentally. The consequence is that they are all scared of her and start crying if she comes close, even at snack time, so we have had to move her to be with the older children - and they don't like her either!. Parents who bring younger children along to drop of their older children with us are very wary of her.

We try to ensure that her play is well scaffolded by the adults, and we have tried to explain that her behaviour is unacceptable and praise the good behaviour - all the usual things. However, today, within 10 minutes of her arrival she had to be moved to sit on her own for a couple of minutes as she has reduced a big 4 year old boy to tears - she had him on the ground, sitting on him and pulling his hair! We talked to her after her 'time out' (or whatever people like to call it these days) and told her she wasn't being friendly, and that we are all good friends at Preschool.

I went to hang a coat up and when I came back she has a small 2 year old on the floor with her hands round her throat! There were 3 staff members in the room, I was hanging a coat and the other two were 'meet and greet' too, chatting to parents etc. Usual morning stuff.

This is not the first time she's been like this, as I say, it's been going on since she started last May - but not quite so 'severe' as this. Mum has a new baby due in April (Heaven help it), but although this child knows about it, she always looks surprised if it's mentioned.

So, we couldn't let this one go - luckily both parents came to pick her up at the end of the morning and were the first to arrive, so I took them into the other room to have a word with them.

Dad seemed to listen to what I was saying better than Mum, who said that she's never seen her be rough with other children. (hmm)

Now apparently, she has decided she's going to attend Preschool with her daughter for the next month or so, to see what she's like.

She's not approached me to ask if she can do this - just informed others outside Preschool, and word had trickled back to us.

I'm not averse to her doing this, but wonder how she's going to take it when we tell her daughter off in front of her!

[Guest]

i can sypathise with this scenario!

have a child nearly 2 who is displaying simolar behaviour-biting, lashing out and with staff-had staff 2day in tears as he had hit and bit and scratched her, had to send her to staffroom totake time out-mum and dad seemed concerned at first, we accessed her a health visitor and speech therapist as aftfer doing STAR behavioural assessment it seemed to be linked to lack of language and therefore frustation, after putting consistent stratergies behaviour seemed to lesson however another child is copying behavoir and bit him-mum has gone all defensive and blames other child for his return in behaviours and dad isnt interestive i have a feeling parents are having a rough patch but are reluctant to say, mum thinks if he moves up to toddlers it will improve but after visits it has proven that he is just the same!! might suggest that they come in to observe but will he behave the same with them present?#its not fair when staff are dreading coming into work due to a child who isnt even 2 yet! excuse spelling mistakes- having a glass or 2 to chill out!! feel guilty really as i supposed to befinishing Sef!!

 

i procrastinate far to much!!!!x

[Guest]

I would definately agree it's important to record everything.

I wonder if there's another child, or children, that you could support this child in developing a positive relationship with. do you feel that there is some kind of underlying learning/behavioural difficulty for this child or is she responding to stress in her environment?

I think it would be really important to offer some careful, targeted support to this child now especially as she is about to experience another big transition - new sibling - in her life.

I think it could possibly be a good thing for mum to spend some time in the setting - once you've discussed how you will manage the discipline side of things - you can observe her relationship with the child, she can witness her child's behaviour and see how you deal with it and you could work in partnership to come up with strategies to support her. It could be a really good opportunity for you to work closely with the family, getting to know them well so that you are in agood position to give extra support when the new baby has arrived.

good luck

[Cait]

I would definately agree it's important to record everything.

I wonder if there's another child, or children, that you could support this child in developing a positive relationship with. do you feel that there is some kind of underlying learning/behavioural difficulty for this child or is she responding to stress in her environment?

I think it would be really important to offer some careful, targeted support to this child now especially as she is about to experience another big transition - new sibling - in her life.

I think it could possibly be a good thing for mum to spend some time in the setting - once you've discussed how you will manage the discipline side of things - you can observe her relationship with the child, she can witness her child's behaviour and see how you deal with it and you could work in partnership to come up with strategies to support her. It could be a really good opportunity for you to work closely with the family, getting to know them well so that you are in agood position to give extra support when the new baby has arrived.

good luck

 

We have tried buddying her up with 4 different children over the months - but they are really miserable - even with scaffolded support.

I already know the Mum well as I taught her at school - she was also at school with my son. We live in a very small village so know one another that way too.

[Susan]

Is it possible that this child, who is still very young, has yet to develop her spatial awareness? She may not actually be pushing into the children but moving too close to them?

 

I have a 5 yr old with marked spatial awareness and inappropriate social behaviour/ contact problems who is being assessed at the moment but who displays very similar behaviours. His mother noticed very similar things from a similar age to your little girl.

 

Good luck.

[Guest]

We have tried buddying her up with 4 different children over the months - but they are really miserable - even with scaffolded support.

I already know the Mum well as I taught her at school - she was also at school with my son. We live in a very small village so know one another that way too.

It sounds like you've been addressing the behaviour as best you can.

I do feel a real sadness for this child though, it must be terrible if she's making other children feel miserable and not getting any positive feedback from them.

Sorry I can't be of more help

[Cait]

Is it possible that this child, who is still very young, has yet to develop her spatial awareness? She may not actually be pushing into the children but moving too close to them?

 

I have a 5 yr old with marked spatial awareness and inappropriate social behaviour/ contact problems who is being assessed at the moment but who displays very similar behaviours. His mother noticed very similar things from a similar age to your little girl.

 

Good luck.

 

 

It would be nice to think this, but no - from observations we can see that she waits until she thinks we're not looking and does it then

[Guest]

It would be nice to think this, but no - from observations we can see that she waits until she thinks we're not looking and does it then

soz to be so late getting back, but just catching up on forum.. why not try letting the child in question see what is happening ... i.e turning the table around the other way ...case senario - make up a story in text/picture/verbal format and ask the child what she would do to help this child etc., just a suggestion maybe you have done this already...

[Guest]

I'll need to read your post again to have a really good think about this one Cait but my immediate reaction to this part of your post is to suggest that as soon as mum confirms to you that she is going to stay with her daughter at pre-school you have a conversation with her about how you will handle 'discipline' when they both attend together. Firstly you need to agree with her the capacity in which mum is going to attend: if she is going to be an observer only then she has to let you deal with unwanted behaviour (although obviously you might need to tell her in advance so that she knows what to expect). However she might prefer to deal with incidents such as those you have outlined herself, in which case I think it is still important for you both to agree a strategy beforehand, especially as you will still need to get involved in order to deal with any children the little girl targets.

 

If you have a family consultation form or something on which you record details of conversations with parents/carers I would strongly suggest that you write down the details of your conversation and get her to sign it. This way there can be no confusion about how you are going to handle this situation both whilst she is in the group and whenever she leaves her daughter with you. And there will be no way that she can say you didn't talk to her about it, either (and yes I know that sounds a strange thing to say but take it from me it can happen).

 

Sounds like you've had a bit of a day of it: I take it you've filled out all the incident forms etc and that the paperwork is up to date? Just as a precaution!

 

Maz

 

Agree with Maz you should have had this all written down on an incident form and had her parents sign - did you also have the little boy that was hurt written down on an accident form or parent interaction sheet so you have ensured that his parents were made aware too? believe me it is very important that you do both of these things we had a complaint made against us last year and because we had no parent signatures or paperwork to back up what we were saying we got in trouble!

[Cait]

All went well today. Both parents brought her into party and Mum said they'd 'had a word' with her. I kept things very 'upbeat' and positive with them and reassured them that we would let them know if there was any incident.

We watched her closely and she actually said 'I mustn't push the children' a couple of times.

Mum mentioned that she might stay for some sessions in January, so I told her that we'd wait and see how things are, but that I was pleased that she was willing to do this.

[Guest]

Great to have a positive end to the term, fingers crossed this was just a phase that has now finished and all will be ok in January.

 

Peggy