The Whole Stupid Situation

[Guest]

and guess what the government might change within the next two years, then what?......................

 

Yes Maz I remember the 'old' days, under 8's social worker 'inspectors' what they did have was an ongoing relationship with the groups, not just in a regulatory manner, but also in an advisory role ( just one chief not two as is now-less local government cost as well).

 

I see it that the problem started when they changed the focus from child care to child education, however much they say it is both, education leads the policy and therefore the experience, for the children, staff and parents, and also the cost implications, and the higher need for centra government funding to be able to do the job required of us. both in terms of knowledge and skills and the man hours to actually carry out the role.

 

Like you I found the fees difficult for my son (£1 a session as I recall, but as a single parent back in the early 80's £5 a week was a lot of money to me, my weekly food bill being only £10 at that time). So I became a parent helper in lieu of fees, the rest, as they say is history.

 

I think there is a lot of money now designated for early years, especially since the changes to the childrens Act etc, it's just that it is mismanaged ie: too many chiefs, advisors for every policy I'd say (SENCO, EQUAL OPPS, QUALITY ASSURANCE, OUTDOOR PLAY, TRAINERS, EYAT's ETC) How come we need all these advisors if the workforce is more highly qualified???

 

I haven't looked at the actual figures but since Ofsted came into being, compared to the 'soft' under 8's inspections, I think that the majority of outcomes is satisfactory or above, under the national standards and FSC, why then did they feel the need to introduce the EYFS, and in all essence a mandatory curriculum for under 5's? (can't register unless it's practiced, parents can't access funding if they choose an exempt setting).

 

And then the introduction of the CC's, why on earth didn't the government put all that money into current settings, such as the one your daughter first attended and raise their standards, enable the owner to be able to afford adequate staffing levels.

 

The changes in the last decade has made early years more expensive and I'm not truly sure whether it is to the benefit of the children, especially if staff morale is measured as a key indicator of quality provision. The changes have also provoked te loss of many experienced practitioners, moving to better paid jobs, or like myself having to leave the sector due to financial losses.

( I personally lost what amounts to the average NN, annual wage, which I will never recuperate)

 

rant over.

 

Peggy

[HappyMaz]

The changes in the last decade has made early years more expensive and I'm not truly sure whether it is to the benefit of the children, especially if staff morale is measured as a key indicator of quality provision.

You raise many interesting and thought-provoking questions Peggy - not least what will happen after the next election.

 

There has been lots of research about what constitutes high quality, and there are annual surveys about fees and wages and so on. There was the "for love or money?" report recently which looked at staff morale but I wonder if anyone will do some research into how settings feel about the challenges they face and the effect of Governent policy on their work? Once we had a concensus of opinion we could begin to identify ways of overcoming these barriers - at the moment it feels as if we are fighting so many fires at once that we are at risk of being completely engulfed.

 

We can only guess at what will come next - call me foolhardy but on the whole I am more optimistic than pessimistic about the future. Until the reverse is true I will plug on and do what little I can to provide my children and their families with the best care and education my team can offer.

 

Maz

[Guest]

Well said Maz, I am just one of the one's who got burnt, but agree that positive attitude is best for self and others, without it we will get engulfed.

 

At he end of the day, it is the attitudes and interactions from the practitioners that ALL the children will remember and learn from, the happy, fun, homely, caring etc relationships......and this doesn't cost penny.

 

Peggy

[Chill]

All that has been said about childrens centres (high cost, better staff wages, sustainibility for them and other providers, ) has been in my mind but I have not liked to say as it sounds like sour grapes. They have so many advantages and do not always seems to recognise the problems other providers have. So much money has been invested in early years and yet still many many practitioners are working for minimum or just above wages in addition to doing so many extra hours. I am with you Peggy and do not feel so optimistic for the future especially for PVI providers.

[HappyMaz]

All that has been said about childrens centres (high cost, better staff wages, sustainibility for them and other providers, ) has been in my mind but I have not liked to say as it sounds like sour grapes. They have so many advantages and do not always seems to recognise the problems other providers have.

I agree Chill: it is easy to sound like sour grapes when complaining how green the grass is on the Children's Centre's side of the fence. However there are positives to being independent: I don't need to go to a committee every time I want to buy a new resource or change a supplier, and I don't have to comply with policies that I haven't personally drawn up and that I don't agree with.

 

I was talking to Wolfie about this and she was saying that there is scope for Children's Centres to support PVI groups either with resources or manpower - I wonder how we can plug this gap and help smaller less well resourced groups to reap the benefits from this Government funding? I'm fairly certain that all their shiny new resources cannot be in use all the time: it would be great if we could borrow them from time to time to enhance our own provision.

 

Our children's centres don't have childcare within their offer, however they do have lots of money for resources such as stay and play sessions. Perhaps its worth everyone approaching their local children's centre manager and asking if they are prepared to loan out some of their resources to surrounding groups?

 

Maz

[Smiles]

Now theres a thought. I manage a small committee run preschool and recently I was apporached by someone from a Children Centre in my area and we were able to access free several outings they had organised in our area. I may just take your idea up with them - its worth a go

 

smiles

[HappyMaz]

Now theres a thought. I manage a small committee run preschool and recently I was apporached by someone from a Children Centre in my area and we were able to access free several outings they had organised in our area. I may just take your idea up with them - its worth a go

I think any way you can make links between your group and the Children's Centre has got to be a worthwhile venture, Smiles. Maybe this is the way we can start to break down the barriers that have been talked about here.

 

Maz

[Guest]

I think the idea of CC was good but why duplicate day care? My staff leave for thousand more. How can I blame them. We do the same job but get nothing to help wages and that is what I get mad at. Why did the govt sink millions/billions?? into new build and huge wages when they could have used what was alraedy there and working ie private and maintained nurseries.

Why pay huge wages to centres where there are no children? My nursery is full yet my staff are on a pittance to them. why dont they close the ones that arent viable and pay the staff what they deserve?

I live in a relatively small borough yet there are 10 Childrens Centres in the borough.Why??? How much money went down the plug hole in beautiful new buildings and equipment where I struggle tp pay wages and buy new equipment? I dont want the money - my staff and children do!!!!!

[Chill]

"I live in a relatively small borough yet there are 10 Childrens Centres in the borough.Why??? How much money went down the plug hole in beautiful new buildings and equipment where I struggle tp pay wages and buy new equipment? "

 

This is a really good question - has anyone got the answer. How has such investment been justified.

 

Chill

 

p.s. this is a serious question - I want to feel comfortable that this level of public funding has made a very significant difference.

[HappyMaz]

This is a really good question - has anyone got the answer. How has such investment been justified.

Not knowing which Borough it is and not being in that Borough, I wouldn't know the answer. Clearly the Local Authority does - perhaps that would be a good place to start. I'm sure the Freedom of Information Act has been used to elicit such information in different arenas (the recent news report about how many hospital trusts have had to call in pest control officers springs to mind).

 

Why not ask the question? In the meantime, why not try building some kind of relationship with your nearest Children's Centre, as Smiles suggested?

 

Maz

[Smiles]

I have just looked at their website in our area - there are seven of them. I presume they are open in the holidays and as we have finisdhed for the summer I am going too contact the lady who contacted me too visit, she did tell me I could when she came, I was busy interviewing , probably shoukd have taken more notice .

 

smiles

[Lou]

I'm the same as smiles and have contact with our local cc BUT I have to agree with the coments already made. I have visited two of our local cc and they do have everything they need. Excellent working environment, good pay and no bad back from getting out and putting away.

 

Smiles I would be interested where in essex you are. If you don't mind me knowing pm me but it is really alright if you do not want to.

[louby loo]

my local CC is a small office in the corner of the local library!

 

xxx

[HappyMaz]

my local CC is a small office in the corner of the local library!

So no childcare there then, I'm assuming!

[Guest]

we have a cc near us I have asked my authority consultant to see if we could meet with them or go on training with them to no avail. I must have approached them 3 times in the year or so they have been operating the only person who has contacted us is the speach and language person to come visit a client who attends PG . she said thats the first time I have seen our poster displayed ,they have parent drop ins, then proceded to say she had suggested to this parent that a cc might be able to offer her child more sessions full day. he is progressing well with us and mum only wants part time the cheek!

then the manager had a meeting with our schools HT to discuss the cc and what they can offer parents and the children in the area which our HT said good she would promote family well being but didnt need to promote the child care as school already has a provider (me) but could our provider get together with the cc manager to discuss options. the reply was at present they are only working with schools did the gov say that cc would work with exsisting providers? What rot we are the last preschool within our small town I will not believe that they are not trying to get rid of us. this cc has been under subscribed and the services offered are poor and lack staff midwives etc if a parent rings to leave a message for a h.visitor they never reply it is run very sub standard but has wonderful facilities and lots of money for initiatives. Money down the drain! I realise that not all cc are poor but it just makes my blood boil.

sue

[Lou]

Sue that is a disgrace and you are right to feel so angry about the CC. We was told be an advisory visitor that she couldn't understand how we got a good in our ofsted and the local CC got outstanding. She said the CC was a good setting but she felt we were better. We have a good relationship with both the CC's close to us and do visit and have the attached teacher come to visit us.

I think we some times get seduced by the idea of not getting out and putting away and having a nice new building, oh and resources and government money and our staff getting a fair wage and and and I could go on and on but really it is the staff of these settings that make them work or not work as Sue as proved.

[Guest]

I have just spent the last two weeks clearing out a classroom we occupied for 5 years which the pimary school wanted back by September so they can open their own nursery class, and clearing out the baby room we can no longer afford to staff or run because we don't have the classroom. I have had to try and equip one room from the four rooms we previously had and while I am confident we have done a good job I am heart broken at the stuff I have had to sell and give away and the staff I have had to lose in the process. The committee kindly agreed to pay me and any staff who could come into help with the clear up for the first first 7 days 10-4, there were 4 of us the first 3 days and 2 of us the rest (it is the holidays!) I couldn't just walk away from the mess the place was in so I have been in unpaid until it was finished.

i know that from the 2nd September I am going to be back where I was 5 years ago, doing most of the work that needs to be done on my own time like I have read so many of you are doing, and i know that i will start to resent the job again, but when it can mean the difference between a good and and unsatisfactory ofsted report what choice is there?

i read somewhere (i think it was tes) that there is alot of difficulty recruiting headteachers because of the blame culture when ofsted fails a school, i can't be the only nursery manager who is feeling completely stressed out by the prospect of an inspection, am expecting mine early, having had no more training on the EYFS other than 'this is the pack these are the cards...this is the cd rom...'

 

My middle daughter is anxiously waiting for Thursdays A level results and i am sitting here surrounded by all of the stuff she is getting ready to (hopefully) head off to uni in September with to start on the path to become a reception class teacher, i have tried to tell her its a hard job she'll be taking on but she has been surrounded by it her whole life so if anyone feels like crossing fingers for her on thursdays she'll be opening the envelope around 9.30

 

Peggy i had to smile when i read your post upthread.....i started out in a village playgroup as the snacklady to pay my youngests fees £1.25 a session got paid half termly into one hand straight back to them for fees! never dreamed that 13 years later i'd get a degree out of it so i shouldn't complain but i also have the grey hairs to prove its not been easy

[Guest]

Freda, I've got the grey hairs, no degree yet, but maybe one day, and my fingers will be crossed for your daughters results.

 

Peggy

 

p.s. and I look back on my preschool days with more positive and fond memories than negative ones.

[Guest Wolfie]

Having read through all the recent posts on this thread I feel almost ashamed to admit that I work in a Children's Centre and have just accepted a new position in another one.

 

I am well aware that there are a lot of poorly run, mismanaged children's centres out there who do nothing to establish links with, and support, existing providers and who often waste the large amounts of money that are poured into them on, in my opinion, unnecessary "frills". However, please be assured that there are also other centres that aren't as bad as this, where the staff employed feel guilty and extremely uneasy about the imbalance of funding and the negative effects on existing providers.

 

In my new job I shall certainly be jumping up and down and making noises on behalf of all the PVIs in my area and doing my utmost to support the services and support that they offer to their families. We're not ALL bad!

Edited August 10, 2008 by Wolfie

[HappyMaz]

In my new job I shall certainly be jumping up and down and making noises on behalf of all the PVIs in my area and doing my utmost to support the services and support that they offer to their families. We're not ALL bad!

Nobody should be made to feel guilty or uneasy about their settings and how they are funded Wolfie, or feel they have to justify themselves.

 

I think it should be up to the Local Authority to ensure that CCs work with the local PVI settings and facilitate this to happen by providing resources (not least time and money). This has worked well in our Borough with our LA nurseries - we have been able to join 'library' schemes where we can borrow resources to support particular curriculum areas, props for enriching our role play etc. Each nursery head supports a number of local groups, keeping them informed and sharing good practice (wherever they see it: its not just a matter of saying they think we should be doing certain things - but often they see one thing being done in one group and if they think it might work well in another, they will pass information on or encourage groups to talk together).

 

I don't know the exact details of the 'mandate' for the work of Children's Centres - but if all CC managers had to show as part of their performance review how exactly they had worked with local groups during a set period, I'm sure attitudes would soften and things would change. Perhaps then groups could begin to reap some of the benefits of the large amounts of Government funding that has been devoted to building and developing the CC vision.

 

And lets not imagine that every PVI setting is impeccably managed and makes the best use of its funding - and nor does the management of every group find working with other settings and agencies easy, or even desirable.

 

Maz

[Guest Wolfie]

I know I shouldn't feel guilty but I do! It doesn't take much in my case!

[Lou]

Wolfie you should not feel guilty. PVI settings need people like you in the CCs who are aware of the problems we have.

[Guest]

Hear Hear!!!! Wolfie do not feel guilty as you seem to grasp the whole situation. Its just when we go to training etc the CCs literally look down their noses at us knowing they are on thousands more than my staff doing the same job. My staff even trained some of them as students yet they walked into a job paying thousands more. Can you imagine what the staff feel like when sitting with them. I know of outreach workers who are receptionists being paid almost 19000 year who have never Outreached!!!!

I know there are good CC workers out there. I do not tar you all with the same brush(honest). But why are private nursery workers on the lowest wages when the government pay teachers and centre nursery nurses the wage they probably deserve!!! Our income comes from the parents and the pathetic hour rate of the NEG. I know it will change to bums on seats for everyone soon but how much money was wasted this last 10 years!! i shudder to think. How many businessess went under and voluntary groups closed?

As i have said there are 10 CCs in our borough and we are small. A Million Each? In one near me there are 17 children REGISTERED and it has been open 2 years.

[Guest]

and guess what the government might change within the next two years, then what?......................

 

Yes Maz I remember the 'old' days, under 8's social worker 'inspectors' what they did have was an ongoing relationship with the groups, not just in a regulatory manner, but also in an advisory role ( just one chief not two as is now-less local government cost as well).

 

I see it that the problem started when they changed the focus from child care to child education, however much they say it is both, education leads the policy and therefore the experience, for the children, staff and parents, and also the cost implications, and the higher need for centra government funding to be able to do the job required of us. both in terms of knowledge and skills and the man hours to actually carry out the role.

 

Like you I found the fees difficult for my son (£1 a session as I recall, but as a single parent back in the early 80's £5 a week was a lot of money to me, my weekly food bill being only £10 at that time). So I became a parent helper in lieu of fees, the rest, as they say is history.

 

I think there is a lot of money now designated for early years, especially since the changes to the childrens Act etc, it's just that it is mismanaged ie: too many chiefs, advisors for every policy I'd say (SENCO, EQUAL OPPS, QUALITY ASSURANCE, OUTDOOR PLAY, TRAINERS, EYAT's ETC) How come we need all these advisors if the workforce is more highly qualified???

 

I haven't looked at the actual figures but since Ofsted came into being, compared to the 'soft' under 8's inspections, I think that the majority of outcomes is satisfactory or above, under the national standards and FSC, why then did they feel the need to introduce the EYFS, and in all essence a mandatory curriculum for under 5's? (can't register unless it's practiced, parents can't access funding if they choose an exempt setting).

 

And then the introduction of the CC's, why on earth didn't the government put all that money into current settings, such as the one your daughter first attended and raise their standards, enable the owner to be able to afford adequate staffing levels.

 

The changes in the last decade has made early years more expensive and I'm not truly sure whether it is to the benefit of the children, especially if staff morale is measured as a key indicator of quality provision. The changes have also provoked te loss of many experienced practitioners, moving to better paid jobs, or like myself having to leave the sector due to financial losses.

( I personally lost what amounts to the average NN, annual wage, which I will never recuperate)

 

rant over.

 

Peggy

 

 

well said peggy,

 

in total agreement - just catching up on the forum...had a little break away...WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO OUR CDO's and the rest of the hierachy once we have all qualified for our 'early years status!!!' WHY should we as PROFESSIONALS need any guidance??? NO NEED surely- they only listen to 'our views' and feed back!!! Soz I am a bit 'miffed' and have taken a long time to say, that 'we, as professionals' are the 'guinea pigs'!!!

[Guest]

Hear Hear!!!! Wolfie do not feel guilty as you seem to grasp the whole situation. Its just when we go to training etc the CCs literally look down their noses at us knowing they are on thousands more than my staff doing the same job. My staff even trained some of them as students yet they walked into a job paying thousands more. Can you imagine what the staff feel like when sitting with them. I know of outreach workers who are receptionists being paid almost 19000 year who have never Outreached!!!!

I know there are good CC workers out there. I do not tar you all with the same brush(honest). But why are private nursery workers on the lowest wages when the government pay teachers and centre nursery nurses the wage they probably deserve!!! Our income comes from the parents and the pathetic hour rate of the NEG. I know it will change to bums on seats for everyone soon but how much money was wasted this last 10 years!! i shudder to think. How many businessess went under and voluntary groups closed?

As i have said there are 10 CCs in our borough and we are small. A Million Each? In one near me there are 17 children REGISTERED and it has been open 2 years.

 

 

Do not get me started!!! i will post tomorrow when i have come to my senses - been away...lots to write but very tired...i am scared that i will write things that the rest of you will not appreciate!!!

[Guest]

Ah, the midnight hour Toadie, I time I have often found myself ready to rant. Sometimes I'm like you and wait for a good nights sleep, other times I just rant away, secure in the knowledge that other members know I never intend to offend and that my words are just my current opinion and I'm always open to be persuaded to change my views.

 

Peggy

[HappyMaz]

WHY should we as PROFESSIONALS need any guidance??? NO NEED surely- they only listen to 'our views' and feed back!!! Soz I am a bit 'miffed' and have taken a long time to say, that 'we, as professionals' are the 'guinea pigs'!!!

This is an interesting point, toadie. I know that in some Boroughs advisory/development officers are undertaking further study because the individuals themselves have said they feel uneasy 'advising' people who potentially have more knowledge than they do.

 

Again I have to say that we are very lucky here in Windsor and Maidenhead - we do have our differences of opinion (I'm sure I've mentioned our tussles regarding matters such as rolling snack bar ) but by and large our Early Years team do just what you say: listen and feed back. My view is that they have more experience of a variety of settings than I do: if they pass on an idea they have seen in another group and it seems sensible to try it then I will. However if they are suggesting something I cannot support then I have the knowledge and increasingly the confidence to tell them why.

 

Maz

[Marion]

It could be all change after 2010 anyway ..." Beverley Hughes also announced further details of the EYFS review, scheduled to begin in 2010. The Minister confirmed the review will assess how the framework was implemented and how well it meets the needs of children, families and childcare providers. Work will begin immediately to gather information to inform the review, including compiling national and international evidence on child development and monitoring the way in which the EYFS is implemented."

[HappyMaz]

It could be all change after 2010 anyway

I think your timeline is somewhat overenthusiastic, Marion. Think how long it will take to do the study, write the report, then prepare the Government's response, then put the Government response out to consultation, and then to devise a strategy!

 

But more seriously, in a way I'm glad they're leaving it for a couple of years before doing any kind of review: imagine the negative vibes they'd pick up if they started now!

 

I think the Rose Review into the CLL early learning goals is a good idea though - and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with. In the meantime I wish the quality press would stop reporting that four year olds are expected to write sentences with punctuation.... I may even be moved to writing a letter!

[Marion]

Maz you know they like to keep us on our toes. Two years to get to grips with it then change everything again sounds about right