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I have been reviewing my Employment training and Qualifications policy and this has made me realise the full implications regarding the CDWC ( Childrens workforce development council) qualification requirements by 2010 / 2015.

 

I currently have a manager level 3, the requirements will be that I have a manager at EYPS status by 2015 ( only 9 yrs away !!) Yes, I'm a forward thinker. However, if an unqualified person came to me know it could take up to 9 yrs to achieve EYPS, depending on school leaving qualifications.

 

anyway, I digress, My concern is that I will have to make contract changes to state that my current staff have to achieve certain qualifications within a certain time period. I wondered what i would do, or what my legal obligations were if they didn't accept the contract changes.

 

I phoned DTI ( Department of trade and Industry) The very nice lady there felt that as an employer i am caught between a few laws, Age Discrimination law and Disability Law.

 

Age Discrimination may be the case if I require my manager to achieve a degree, to keep her job, which is not required in her current contract. She said it could be discrimination because older people have not had equal access to getting degrees as younger employees may already have.

 

Disability discrimination, my current employee registered disabled due to learning difficulties may not be able to achieve level 2/3, this was also not required in her current contract.

 

I also spoke to PLA Lawcall, he said that if the qualification requirements, such as attaining a degree, are set in law, then my staff will have to comply to contract changes. So this left me with the question; Are the CDWC requirements for certain practitioners to attain EYPS by 2010/ 2015 set in law??

 

I emailed the CDWC with this question.

 

quote: "Sorry unable to use the contact link on the FAQ page = got an error .

 

Re: Early Years.

I am the sole owner of a preschool-registered full day care.

My query is:

Will I be required by law to employ a manager at EYPS level in 2015.

 

This will have implications for current employment contract changes, to require current management staff to update their qualifications to this level. Without a requirement in law, they may not agree to a contract change.

How does this contract change fit in with age Discrimination Act? My current manager, due to age, did not have access to degree level qualifications as younger people have - ie: Government funding etc.

I also employ a person with learning disabilities; will it be a legal requirement that all staff are qualified by 2015? This may affect her employment if she is unable to qualify. I will also have to change her terms of contract to require that she qualify within a certain time scale.

I am currently reviewing my Employment, Training and qualifications policys and I am concerned if current employees do not agree to changes requiring them to gain certain qualifications within certain timescales to fit with your vision for the Childrens workforce.

 

Best regards,

 

Peggy

 

 

ARE YOU ASLEEP YET :oxD:(

 

This is my draft policy so far, I have yet to include funding terms for training ie: what I as an employer am liable to pay for or what employees have to pay for.

 

I would appreciatte any comments.

 

Thanks for bearing with this long post, I just feel i need to be proactive to enable me to have the required staff in time. one of my staff, for example is a new unemployed on her 1st terms trial, following my policy timetable it could take her up to 9 yrs to get EYPS. ( I'm not sayiong all staff would want to or need to get this high a qualification but even if she got to level 3 a requirement for 2015, it could take up to 4 yrs)

 

Peggy

Staff_Training_Draft_Policy.doc

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I think it is great that you are thinking so far ahead, wow what an organised person you are.

 

i am not to sure on the legal, or any other standing on this one. But i was aware of it. I recently (well last year) completed my degree in childhood studies and in my area the course to gain EYPS status is being piloted and i received a letter from the uni asking me if i wanted to sign up for it, if i did it would have taken me about 6 months to achieve EYPS (they would have funded it too).

i however do not have my GCSE maths or english which was a requirement (which may be something you wish to bear in mind peggy).... i can re-do my maths and english and probably will have to in order to get the EYPS....

 

i wonder what EYPS will really mean for staff??????, more money, or just another title.... sorry being a bit cynical there :o

 

anyway didn't even answer your question, but thought id throw my two pennies worth in :D

 

Dawn

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I have actually had talks with the local basic skills agency regarding maths and English GCSE, they are not yet aware of the implications of many people requiring these qualifications.

 

I applied for the pilot, thinking there might be a route without a degree, accreditation of prior learning and experience and maybe an entry assignement, but reading in Nursery World, it became clear that the 'fast track' pilot was only for people with degrees already ( now why was I surprised :o ) I wished they had stated this requirement on the application form. I have 260 CAT points from two different prior learning courses, but these are worth diddly squat in terms of how much further study I would need to do.

 

I really think you should go for it, can you do your GCSE's alongside the pilot? It may not change salaries in the short term but I really do believe that eventually the PVI sector will diminish considerably and many, many, positions will be available in the maintained sector, which carries higher salary levels. If Early Years Management is a long term career for you then I can't see how you can continue in the future without the EYPS.

 

I just wish these opportunities were around in my youth, I didn't want to teach in schools, that is why I didn't train for QTS, but I have always wanted to be recognised as a professional and would have loved to have had the chance to gain a degree in Early Years, say 10 years ago.

 

Peggy

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Wow Peggy - when you list your time scales for training like that it makes you realise how close 2015 is. I hadn't worried about it up to now because it seemed so far away.

 

I totally agree with your training policy - my only concern is being able to access the courses for staff in the timescales and the costs involved with training. Hopefully the government will provide more money for training so that the CDWC requirements are realistic to achieve. One of the girls at work is just about to finish her nvq2 which has been government funded and is hoping to start her fast track nvq3 in the Autumn which again should be funded. However if it isn't it will cost in the region of £800.

 

I am going to suggest to my committee that they adopt your training policy at the next agm.

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this is why all the transformation funding is coming in for all this training. I am in the same boat as you Dawn a year through my FD Degree but will need to retake GCSE Maths and English plus do my 60 extra credits to gain EYPS, although whre i am managing at the moment is only sessional so we are not yey required by law to have a proffesional in by 2010. :D

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I Think the biggest problem that people are missing is that in order to access funding to take our existing staff to furthar training with the Transformation Fund the setting must employee a graduate.

A) If you do not have a vacancy where do you fit them in?

:o £ 3000 is available through the funding for recruitment but where does the rest come from?

C) Where do they fit in with the structure of the setting ie manager/deputy/seniors without upsetting anyone?

 

 

I am having sleepless nights with all this.

Concerned owner

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Along the Maths and English lines, I gained a B at GCSE in English and an E in Maths, which was quite exciting, considering my predicted grade was a U!!

 

However, to complete my level 3 last year, I have had to do Key Skills in English and Maths. I asked why English and apparently it was because I took my GCSE's so long ago, that they were no longer valid :o .

 

I passed English Key Skills Level 2 (which apparently is the equivalent of a C grade at GCSE) with no problems. The maths however, has been a lot harder to complete. The portfolio was ok, I hd plenty of support and help for that, but the maths exam still looms over me. In fact, I will be taking that at 12:30 today. I do not believe I will pass, but if by some stroke of magic, I manage it, I will have achieved Maths to a GCSE C grade equivalent.

 

My whole course was funded under the Modern Apprentice scheme. I did my NVQ3, Diploma in Early Years Practice (got my final grade for that last week - D xD ) and the Maths and English key skills portfolios/exams. I haven't had to pay for that, because of my age, but if I don't complete my maths with a pass, my funding will be affected and I may have to pay towards the overall course costs.

 

That's on top of the £720 the university want for me to sit the first year of the foundation degree. It's the same again for the second year.

 

Sorry, I know this doesn't answer any questions that have been asked in this thread, but like Dawn, I had to chuck my little bit in.

 

I sympathise with all those who have to take maths and english to further their careers. My certificates hang on whether or not I pass this exam today...

 

So technically, I am qualified and have been for the last year, but until I have certificates, I cannot prove this, so getting a job is really difficult (although I have one now!)

 

I am interested in the EYPS, but without certificates, I can't do the foundation degree and without that, I am assuming that I won't be able to gain EYPS. Am I right in thinking this?

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I do wonder about APL in all this, surely if I am capable of writing a 10,000 word dissertation at degree level 2 ( for my ADCE) then my english standard is above GCSE level. But I do not have a GCSE certificate. :oxD ( although if you look at my grammer and spelling in all my forum posts, maybe I do need to re-do GCSE :( )

 

equally, if I can 'run' the financial side of business, calculating the education Fund etc within budgets then surely I am at GCSE level maths, but again I do not have a GCSE certificate to prove my mathematical ability. :(

 

Thanks for reminding me about the need for these GCSE, I will now have to get more info on how staff can get these certificates and consider if I require them before employing someone, or the cost implications if I require someone to get them once they are employed with me. AAAHHH

 

 

Peggy

 

 

 

Quote "However, to complete my level 3 last year, I have had to do Key Skills in English and Maths. I asked why English and apparently it was because I took my GCSE's so long ago, that they were no longer valid ."

 

How long is too long ago?????

 

Peggy

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I'm worried by Clare's O'levels being out of date too. I have nine O'levels including english language, english literacy and maths - all passed in 1984 so I guess they were a complete waste of time then. :o

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I took 11 GCSE's in 1998, and got A* in computers, 2 B's in English (for language and literature) 2 C's in Science, an E in Maths (hurrah!) plus some others which I got B's, C's and D's in.

 

I was told that GCSE's are only valid for 5 years, unless you are planning on going into further/higher education, then they are counted along with life skills. I'm 24 and got into university, partly because I have GCSE's and have done Level 2 key skills, but also because of my life skills :o . I agree though Nicki, makes you think why bother??

 

I think I did quite well on my maths test today so hopefully some certificates will be forthcoming!

 

My boyfriend has come home today and we have been talking about him going and learning something at college. He fancies underwriting for insurance but to do that, you need to have good english and maths grades/skills. Unfortunately neither of us have the maths, although the english is good. He has found a course called 'Return to Learning' that lasts for 1 year and teaches you maths, english and IT skills. We are looking into costs with a view to maybe attending such a course to update our skills.

 

Well, he helped me with my course, so I guess it's only fair that I go along! xD . It's worth checking with local colleges/adult education centres to see what they can offer.

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Then why are we bothering with key skills??? I don't see the point in wasting time and money putting trainees through key skills 'qualifications' if a GCSE is still needed. Makes me laugh! :o

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oh to be young. when I left school at 15 girls either became nurses secretaries or hairdressers. :D

I never took any exams at all and was told when I was 40 that if I was over 36 the exams wouldn't have meant anything any way. so now that I am 52 there is know hope for me. I would like to do my degree just for the satisfaction of doing it before I retire. If i start it in september I will be 56 by the time I fifinsh it. after 9 years of running my own business and writing god knows how many letter's reports etc. and doing accounts and business plans I think if some one asked me to do my GCSE's I would tell them where to put them.!!!! but if I want to carry on in this business the CDWC will require me to do it as a manager.

Our local LEA is advertising jobs at the moment for Children Centre managers and they are asking for degree level. I think from what ~I have read that after October they will not be able to do this as it will be discrimination due to the Age discrimination Law which says that it doesn't allow people of my age to apply as we were never allowed to even think about degree's when I was at school. so it seems to me they are asking for one thing on one hand and bringing in laws on the other that counteract them. we will have to wait and see what the next government decided to do I expect, and how much about face they can do within the Law. :o

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I will now put my two pennyworth's in. I woudl be keen to do the EYP status, in April/June I will have a BA Hons Degree in Nursery Management so I will presumably need to upgrade with credits on child development - so far - so good - but as I work in a sessional group and they (CWDC) have not really decided on what to do with sessional groups and childmnders - will they offer the funding to those people in this part of the sector who want to do it. I have telephoned them and they are supposed to be coming back to me. So we wait. As for the Maths English - I assume it will be the same as for the GTP programme and you can book time on line to understake a test. I agree that what's the point of doing exams if you have to keep on doing them - do they say that to people with a levels or degrees - oh well that was five years ago, you will have to do it again! It seems ridiculous but no doubt all these things will come out in the wash.

Nikki

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oh to be young. when I left school at 15 girls either became nurses secretaries or hairdressers. :D

I never took any exams at all and was told when I was 40 that if I was over 36 the exams wouldn't have meant anything any way. so now that I am 52 there is know hope for me. I would like to do my degree just for the satisfaction of doing it before I retire. If i start it in september I will be 56 by the time I fifinsh it. after 9 years of running my own business and writing god knows how many letter's reports etc. and doing accounts and business plans I think if some one asked me to do my GCSE's I would tell them where to put them.!!!! but if I want to carry on in this business the CDWC will require me to do it as a manager.

Our local LEA is advertising jobs at the moment for Children Centre managers and they are asking for degree level. I think from what ~I have read that after October they will not be able to do this as it will be discrimination due to the Age discrimination Law which says that it doesn't allow people of my age to apply as we were never allowed to even think about degree's when I was at school. so it seems to me they are asking for one thing on one hand and bringing in laws on the other that counteract them. we will have to wait and see what the next government decided to do I expect, and how much about face they can do within the Law. :o

 

 

I just got this prompt reply from CWDC re: My query whether we will legal be required to employ degree level managers, and whether all staff will legally have to be qualified level 3.

 

Quote:

Thank you for your query.

 

Currently the government has said that it is an 'aim' to get a graduate in every setting. The CWDC is pushing for it but they have not agreed to make this legislation. Research proves that better outcomes for children are achieved when graduates are leading settings which has led to this latest initiative. There has however been no commitment from government to make this law. Similarly the CWDC is pushing to training all childcares to level 3 as a minimum, again the government supports the 'aim' but will not make this a legislative requirement.

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Kind Regards

 

CWDC Service Delivery Unit

 

I now feel the need to pose this question to Ofsted.

 

I will now put my two pennyworth's in. I woudl be keen to do the EYP status, in April/June I will have a BA Hons Degree in Nursery Management so I will presumably need to upgrade with credits on child development - so far - so good - but as I work in a sessional group and they (CWDC) have not really decided on what to do with sessional groups and childmnders - will they offer the funding to those people in this part of the sector who want to do it. I have telephoned them and they are supposed to be coming back to me. So we wait. As for the Maths English - I assume it will be the same as for the GTP programme and you can book time on line to understake a test. I agree that what's the point of doing exams if you have to keep on doing them - do they say that to people with a levels or degrees - oh well that was five years ago, you will have to do it again! It seems ridiculous but no doubt all these things will come out in the wash.

Nikki

 

 

It does appear that sessional groups are being pushed out from all angles, ie: Educational funding must eventually be able to provide 15 hrs per week, 38 wks a year, plus no funding towards qualifying the sessional workforce ( well maybe get funding if any is left after full day care has been funded)

 

I have heard about GCSE test online, is this accessible if you are not doing a GTP? Can you direct me with a link to more info?

 

Peggy

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It's not really a GCSE but its a proficiency test in both English and Maths that have to be undertaken when you do the GTP if you do not have the GCSE. These must be taken, they have to be booked online and I think that each GTP provider buys into a scheme, you can take this more than once if you fail but I a m not sure whether you can do this as individuals. I think there are books as well to support this test. If I can I will try and find out but am in the middle of my presentation for my dissertation and I may forget. I think it may have details on the GTP programme

Nikki

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It's not really a GCSE but its a proficiency test in both English and Maths that have to be undertaken when you do the GTP if you do not have the GCSE. These must be taken, they have to be booked online and I think that each GTP provider buys into a scheme, you can take this more than once if you fail but I a m not sure whether you can do this as individuals. I think there are books as well to support this test. If I can I will try and find out but am in the middle of my presentation for my dissertation and I may forget. I think it may have details on the GTP programme

Nikki

 

Thanks for offering to find out, but don't worry you stick to your dissertation and i'll find out in my own time. :D

Peggy

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  • 1 year later...

The government's 'Graduate in every setting' isn't going to be feasable or sustainable. PVI and the voluntary sector just won't be able to afford to employ graduates, or employees l(ike myself), with go and do the degree themselves to get around this problem. All the girls on my course who are doing the Foundation Degree and who are currently nursery nurses or Teacher's assistants, have no intention of staying working in nurseries. They see the Foundation Degree as their access to doing their BA honours and then going on to become teachers.

 

I would be interested to have comments from other people who are doing their Foundation Degree to see what the intentions are of those people on their course are.

 

Although at my setting I really encourage people to do their NVQ 3 and go on to do their Foundation Degree, the apathy and motivation to just do their NVQ 3 is unbelievable. Boyfriends, nights out, sleep all just come before doing a qualification that will not only move their career forward and improve their knowledge but will earn them more money (which they always moan about).

 

Even those who are qualified, don't seem remotely interested in putting the effort in to move into higher education or obtain their EYS.

 

I did interview some Early Years graduates about 12 months ago for a Manager's position. To be honest, they had very little common sense, didn't have the experience and couldn't answer simple questions in relation to working with babies because most of their placements had been with older children.

 

I don't know what the answer is, but the government certainly doesn't know it. The sector can't afford graduates, the sector can't afford to pay staff high wages and the government continues to fail to understand the economics of running a nursery and continue to pay me considerably less than the costs I incur providing places for children aged 3-5 through the NEG funding.

 

I would gladly invite any government official to come and talk to me to understand the problems we face in the sector and try and find the right solution for all.

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i did my FD really 'just to do something' as i had my level 3 and there were no decent level 4 courses available to me when i embarked on it!!!!!! xD

 

Didnt really intend to do anything else when i started but now having finished am going for EYPS (with hesitations!!!!!) :o

 

I am a manager in a PVI setting and know apart from me gaining knowledge and putting it into practise in my setting ...it will not make any difference to my career unless i move on!!! :(

Edited by hali
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Well I did the FD because I wanted to learn more. Like Hali I've committed to doing EYP in the knowledge that it won't help me earn more money (I earn less now as owner of the group as I did when I was supervisor). Since technicaly we are full day care because of the lunch club and one afternoon session, I will obviously meet the criteria for degree-led settings ahead of schedule (always supposing I meet the standards).

 

I too wonder how many people will stay in childcare once they get their degrees - our Borough is committed to candidates they have supported via bursaries to remain within the childcare workforce. I'm not sure how realistic this is, or how groups like mine will retain a graduate, always assuming they can find an employee who is prepared to do the necessary work to gain the qualification.

 

Perhaps the whole thing will get watered down - perhaps with settings sharing an EYP, or with EYPs being employed by local authorities to support a few settings to lead practice.

 

I guess only time will tell - but I wonder if anyone is doing any research into what happens to EYPs after they gain the status - especially five or ten years down the line.

 

Maz

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