Managing To Manage.

[Guest]

Trekker, you only have to be on here to know that even the best experienced and longest serving managers struggle, I'm assuming your committee are all childcare veterans who are at the top of their game in a perfect world where time stands still and all goes according to plan! They obviously skipped the people skills class!

 

Hali and Rea have a good point...leaving, though hard whilst you are in control may be worth considering following the events of this week. You have to consider how they are going to be toward you further down the line. Sam also makes a good point to get issues in writing. I would then create a portfolio of contradicting evidence to take to interviews should the issue ever arise. Be proactive all the way Trekker it seems you have nothing left to lose and everything to gain, get closure for yourself because that can knaw away in future.

[Guest]

Have been following this post with interest AND dismay.

 

I have to say Trekker that I would be walking. Regardless of the outcome from your current situation, can you honestly say that you could work with this commitee in the future?

 

I have the most wonderfull committe and consider myself extremely lucky. Even so, the job we are doing in the current climate is so demanding and we are only prepared to go the extra mile for such a low wage because we truly believe in early years. It would be such a shame if your current post overshadowed your true commitment, I'm sure there is a position out there that would be grateful of your expertise and professionalism. You sound like a true practitioner, just had an appalling experiance with a commitee that isn't worthy.

 

Chin up x

[Guest]

Hi Trekker

 

As a chair of a committee, several things strike me about your situation.

 

1. How on earth are they going to afford two people at your level?! I would love to bring in someone to support my leader (NOT manage her!) so that she can focus on the learning side of things and someone else can do all that horrendous time consuming admin she has to do. The best I can manage is to pay someone else to do 3 hours a week although I'm fully aware that is not enough. If I did bring someone in, though, it would not be as a line manager for my leader, it would be almost like an administrative director - it's effectively a separate function really these days.

 

2. As someone else said, did they advertise externally, and were you given the chance to apply for this enhanced position? If not, they need to be pulled up for that one.

 

3. They cannot just change your role without your prior consent, again as someone has said previously that is constructive dismissal. Have you spoken to ACAS?

 

In terms of managing to manage, I've come to several conclusions over my years as chair, pushing through changes for our setting and supporting our wonderful leader. Don't know if any of this will help:

 

1. You have to not care what people think about you - it is not a popularity contest! If being liked is your thing, then being a manager may not be the job for you I'm afraid. It's not about being personal, it's about doing the best for your setting, if that upsets people (and I've upset a few in my time!) then so be it.

 

2. Again as someone said, delegation is the key. On my advice my leader has recently started a rota - one person plans inside, one plans outside, the other does risk assessments etc. This has really lead to huge improvements - give them a sense of power over something and they should start to push each other to improve.

 

3. There will pretty much always be one member of staff who causes issues and tries to undermine you. The best approach with this person is to ignore all the issues and treat them just like you treat everyone else. Never let it become personal, no matter what this person does.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Guest

[trekker]

Hi - just thought I'd update as I have a related question I'd like to ask that has been puzzling me for a while.

 

My situation is still undecided...but I did not 'desert' and after a horrible few weeks of feeling aboslutely useless and doubting myself, and after much hesitation, I instead followed procedures and took a stand which made my dissatisfaction very clear.

Things did at least have to slow down considerably then...and I am still waiting to find out what happens next.

It obviously did not improve relationships much and I feel even less supported /appreciated than before (barely any contact these days!) and I am under no illusions that most if not all of the committee have had enough and will 'get out' as soon as they can...but at least I feel that I may now have another chance...though understandably my confidence (which was never great in the first place) took a huge beating and I am still struggling to build it back up.

 

However while the committee continue to consider the situation (regarding the manager position) I just thought I'd post a query regarding committee led groups with manager and leader in post...

I feel that part of the quest for a manager was an attempt to cut down the committees involvement / responsibility...so I just wondered what the committee does in groups that have this set up...does it cut down on their involvement significantly, do they 'hand over' everything (CRB admin, Ofsted paperwork, insurance stuff etc) to the manager (and trust them to get on with it - like a 'silent partner'?) and just conduct the managers appraisals and employ staff as required or are they still required to play a more active role? Is this a requirement for Ofsted and charity commission?

Would just be useful to know for when discussions 'resume'...

[finleysmaid]

well done for hanging on in there....maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel

as for committees over the last 10 years ours has changed from doing loads to being much more like governors of a school. We have just become a limited company in order to limit their liability further and this has probably ensured that they are now definitely in that role of trustee/governor. My job has changed too and i am now more of a manager than a supervisor ... i still run the sessions every day but i also oversea the business and have employed an administrotor who does wages/invoices etc...i delegate jobs to everyone like senco/uniform ordering/it supplies/tesco and sainsburys vouchers etc etc anything that takes time up. now we are a company we will have to get together with the trustees once a year...but i would expect a termly meeting with focus's on finance/education/maintenance etc finances obviously have to be arranged so that they cannot be defrauded but im looking forward to being more independent...lets hope it all works out for both of us

[SazzJ]

However while the committee continue to consider the situation (regarding the manager position) I just thought I'd post a query regarding committee led groups with manager and leader in post...

I feel that part of the quest for a manager was an attempt to cut down the committees involvement / responsibility...so I just wondered what the committee does in groups that have this set up...does it cut down on their involvement significantly, do they 'hand over' everything (CRB admin, Ofsted paperwork, insurance stuff etc) to the manager (and trust them to get on with it - like a 'silent partner'?) and just conduct the managers appraisals and employ staff as required or are they still required to play a more active role? Is this a requirement for Ofsted and charity commission?

Would just be useful to know for when discussions 'resume'...

 

Trekker that is exactly what I was going to say. It seems to me like the committee are trying to get someone else to take on their resposibilities big style!!!!!!! I am sure the PLA have info on what the committee's responsibilities are or should be!!!! Now our LEA are currently in the process of drawing up somethings that states what the committee are responsible for and I know without certainity they are responsible to OFsted. Will see what I can dig out of my info and will return

[Devondaisy]

We have our AGM tomorrow, and committee have sent me the PLA constitution and roles and responsibilities of staff and committee. Not sure if I can post them on here though, as not my own work...?

[redjayne]

You may not be able to post them here Devon - but you could PM them to Trekker ? Am sure someone will be able to advise about posting on here, and the regs!

[flowlow]

Hi Trekker

 

not sure if this will be of use to you but our committee seem to vary with what they do to who is on the committee. We have struggled to get people on the committee and they tend to change every year, however they sacked our administrator and then tried to pass the jobs out between the staff. Although I frequently find myself in the position of walking a tightrope of what I am allowed to do as manager and what I am not. It seems the boundaries change depending on what suits the committee best although I am hoping to change this soon with support from other committee members who don't agree with this way of running things.

 

After reading your posts over such a long time I can only empathize with what you have been through. So many of us find ourselves in this role through circumstance or having the courage to stand up and be counted when there is a need. I hope that things work out for you and would just say that I think the way you have handled this shows you to be more than professional and very brave.

 

xx

[SazzJ]

We have our AGM tomorrow, and committee have sent me the PLA constitution and roles and responsibilities of staff and committee. Not sure if I can post them on here though, as not my own work...?

 

 

Ohhh can I please have a copy too!! My committee are up and down all the time

[flowlow]

Ohhh can I please have a copy too!! My committee are up and down all the time

 

 

would be really grateful for a copy too if you could manage it xxx

[Guest babyjane31]

Hi Trekker,

 

I am a manager of a committee run pre-school and as such undergo all aspects of running the pre-school including staff recruitment, the committee do provide support and guidance but basically I am left to me own devices and just report back to them at our monthly committee meetings. This works ok most of the time unless i do things they don't like however over the years I have learnt to stick up for myself and tell them they employ me to manage so thats what i do and that I am happy to hand back any jobs to them they do not feel i do correctly, they very quickly take back any complaint and say what a good job i'm doing.

 

Whist the role holds a great deal of responsibility and i sometimes feel quite isolated I much prefer that to having them breathing down my neck all the time as at the end of the day they don't have a clue!! having said that I am supernumery (sp!) and have a deputy who supervises on a daily basis

Edited June 5, 2011 by babyjane31

[HappyMaz]

The model pre-school constitution is available to download freely from the Pre-school Learning Allliance's website here. It is always a good idea to provide a link to where the document can be downloaded from the source rather than sending copies saved on your own computer because that way members can be sure they are accessing the latest information direct from the source.

[thumperrabbit]

We are committee run and I have to agree with a previous post how many jobs get done by committee depends on who's in office at the time.

I have just completed a Leadership and Management course run by County and the people from day nurseries were either Manager who were office based OR Leader/Room Leaders who were 'on the shop floor' so to speak, whereas the people who come from Committee run settings seem to be Manager and Leader so basically trying to do it all, and yes we were the ones who were sinking under the stress of the work load

[finleysmaid]

We are committee run and I have to agree with a previous post how many jobs get done by committee depends on who's in office at the time.

I have just completed a Leadership and Management course run by County and the people from day nurseries were either Manager who were office based OR Leader/Room Leaders who were 'on the shop floor' so to speak, whereas the people who come from Committee run settings seem to be Manager and Leader so basically trying to do it all, and yes we were the ones who were sinking under the stress of the work load

but in a way thumperrabbit i think you have answered our problems .... i do not think that we are able to continue in the same vain...how can we expect volunteers to handle larg(ish) amounts of cash, deal with HMRC/wages/maternity pay/staff issues/ etc etc without pay and only the odd thank you .the day care nurseries have split their jobs between education,care and management...we have to make a choice that we take on board the roles and responsibilities of the whole business or pay people to do the jobs...money is of course the issue (as always) but this does not help those parents who want to help but do not have the time or the ability to do the management roles. I have been on both sides of the coin, as it were, and i feel for those committee members who want to do the right thing and who are often elected because nobody else is willing to do the job> After all we often badger them in to standing and then moan when they don't do a good job. So if we want to compete with our day care buddies we have to approach the business as that, a business.

[Devondaisy]

Sorry HappyMaz, I didn't realise the PLA constitution could be downloaded free or I would have posted the link. I will forward on our roles and responsibilities to those who have requested a copy.

 

I am the leader in our setting, and am lucky enough to have a committee member who is paid for a few hours to be our administrator, who deals with anything financial. This works really well as it takes a huge chunk of work away from me, so I'm left to concentrate on running the setting. It also means I don't have someone new each year trying to do a job they don't understand. This sort of arrangement would probably suit you Trekker, but persuading the committee is another matter. There is still a lot to do, but it helps. I also think it helps to have written down roles and responsibilities, then everyone knows exactly where they stand.

 

I'm really pleased they haven't forced you out of a job you ultimately love, because with the right support, you would be fine.

[lynned55]

Now our LEA are currently in the process of drawing up somethings that states what the committee are responsible for and I know without certainity they are responsible to OFsted. Will see what I can dig out of my info and will return

 

Are they? responsible to Ofsted I mean. We had an Ofsted inspection last week and she didn't ask one single things about committee. I was quite surprised

[HappyMaz]

Sorry HappyMaz, I didn't realise the PLA constitution could be downloaded free or I would have posted the link.

No need to apologise, Devondaisy, I didn't realise it was there until I went looking for it!

[trekker]

Sorry HappyMaz, I didn't realise the PLA constitution could be downloaded free or I would have posted the link. I will forward on our roles and responsibilities to those who have requested a copy.

 

I am the leader in our setting, and am lucky enough to have a committee member who is paid for a few hours to be our administrator, who deals with anything financial. This works really well as it takes a huge chunk of work away from me, so I'm left to concentrate on running the setting. It also means I don't have someone new each year trying to do a job they don't understand. This sort of arrangement would probably suit you Trekker, but persuading the committee is another matter. There is still a lot to do, but it helps. I also think it helps to have written down roles and responsibilities, then everyone knows exactly where they stand.

 

I'm really pleased they haven't forced you out of a job you ultimately love, because with the right support, you would be fine.

 

Hi and thanks to you all for your insights .

I think that the general roles and responsibilities list we have is also PLA..but I think it might be useful for the committee and staff to take that and work on a list together that is specific to us. We also dont have defined roles for general committee members which might be another way to 'syphon' off some of the tasks.

We do pay an administrator to do payroll and bills each month so they are already doing most of the treasurers role..

If the leader / manager ends up taking on more of the chairs duties in a committee led preschool it would seem to cancel out the role of the committee (by paying someone to do the tasks committee volunteers to do) - in which case what would the committee end up doing?

Ofsted didnt ask us about the committee either and wasnt bothered about speaking to the chair...so apart from signing cheques and the odd fundraiser there wouldnt be much to do so how could it continue to be a 'committee-run' / 'Parent managed' setting?

 

Some tasks that I have always understood to be committee aspects like fundraising have been questioned - It has been suggested that staff were not pulling their weight when it comes to planning fundraising events though staff usually, voluntarily, attend events in any case.

It is one more thing for us to have to do alongside our day to day care and education duties..and with no additional time provided to get together we can only do so much planning that is not curriculum related surely!

[trekker]

Well I guess i'm another statistic for the 'perils of a committee run pre-school' saga.

It seems it is true that they can do what they choose and that staff really do have little back up in the end.

 

Two months along the line and having postponed manager interviews my committee (and their support officer) has again pooh poohed all my assertions about not having enough time...and any suggestions that I could manage better if I had more of it. They are going to advertise again - though tell me my job role wont change and continue to insist it is intended as a 'support' measure. However they have contradicted themsleves all along so I take that assurance with a pinch of salt (and it will not solve my lack of time issue in any case!).

Having been through the grievance procedure I've spoken to ACAS about appealing and I probably will do but ultimately it seems all I can do is see what the job description is (still not done one so still all confused about what makes it so vital that someone else has the supernumerary time I could have done so much with).

If anything on there implies taking anything from mine they can still force the change on me if necessary.

 

I am so frustrated and feel totally let down. Procedures are there for staff to make their concerns known but in the end you get two chances and have to accept whatever answer they give at the end.

Everything I said they turned around and said it wasnt viable, wasnt realistic and that I should be glad of a manager coming in - the manager would be the ideal person to take on those things I havent had time for and bring us up to the outstanding I said I wanted...funnily enough I dont quite see it that way! I still dont see why I cant have some of the time they are giving this new employee! Apparently a shared role is absolutely not possible...says support woman and I should be satisfied with two hours admin time per week as thats more than most in my position...

To top it all off they looked at me like I was mad for suggesting I felt I should be on a higher wage now that I have my EYP and have earned them additional funding...no obligation to use that funding for the EYP's salary apparently...so so unfaire...what is the point in trying to go for higher qualifications if your get no benefits at all.

 

I dont see myself at the setting long term now...whereas before I couldnt imagine myself ever leaving... I am literally on on my own...my support officer has not been in contact since I first asked her advice and she said it would likely turn out this way...no check ups to see if im still working here...nothing. People running their own business would get more support than we do - its ridiculous!

The bit that gets me is that all this will no doubt be going on my file...all the lies and assumptions about what I have and have not done about my capability because they feel someone with my naturally quiet character cannot effectively manage a group...no matter ive done it for 10 years and got us through three Ofsteds!

 

Since I really do not want to leave I'll stick around for as long as I feel I can take the changes...with no job description in place and contradicting information about what they feel the manager will do it is hard to say for definite how this will go but if its turns out as I imagine though I'll have to look at other options.