Gordon Brown

[Rea]

Have you seen the report? By 2010 there will be 3500 surestart centres up from 600, and schools will offer care from 8am to 6pm. Where does that leave the rest of us?

[Helen]

It's very worrying isn't it? I hope there'll be room for the little old nursery setting. Hopefully, some parents will still want the huge benefits of a small, perhaps home-like place for their 2-4 year olds. I know it's all about choice, but we don't want to be squeezed out of it altogether Failing that, maybe we'll all be applying for jobs in the Surestart Centres! (not from 8-6 though )

[Guest]

He also hopes to provide 15 hours of nursery education for 3 & 4 yr olds in 2 years time.

Anita

[Gezabel]

Can i join the worried brigade please

 

It's all well and good the powers that be providing these surestart centres that provide wrap around care. I am sure there is a need and some parents will be delighted. However, my fear is that alongside this they will increase funding available and that's when small settings like mine may be in trouble. If funding is extending to cover more hours and we do not provide the hours (I am thinking in particular of the before and after school care) then parents may move their children so that they have continuity of care. We do have children who go to a childminder before and after our sessions.

 

Of course we all have our individual preferences and for me its small settings. I used to work in the nursery dept of a private school. They had 12 children per session but really the accommodation was a bit on the small side. They decided to build a new pre prep dept and our room doubled inside. It was great! until that is, the bursar decided the room could now hold more children and it was increased to 24 children per session. Of course more staff were employed but it just wasnt the same.

 

Parents paid horrendously high fees and overnight their children went from being 1 of a group of 12 to one of a group of 24. I can't quite put into words what was 'lost' as a result of this change but I didnt stay much longer.

 

I only have 10 years until I retire but if the small pre schools go my retirement will be brough forward

 

Oh and by the way I have heard rumblings that the next thing is going to be overnight care

[Rea]

Scarey isnt it? Where do they expect to get the trained workforce from to staff these places? Lets all train as tutors.

[Guest]

As a Manager of a setting I am also concerned about the future of childcare with all the promises that the government is making. Where are all the staff going to come from. There is already a problem with recruitment. Unless there is a serious overhaul of pay who will be working these long hours? Without dedicated well trained staff this a recipe for disaster, but the government will look good going into the next election if it is held next year before the changes take place.

[Gezabel]

Oh dearie me! almost wish I hadnt read the paper this morning!

 

 

The latest from Gordon Brown is:

 

Within 6 years all parents will be offered affordable year-round primary school-based childcare for 5-11yr olds. Schools will receive additional funding to lauch this 'wrap around' care.

 

Local authorities will have to ensure that 3-4yr olds have childcare places between the hours of 8-6 each weekday by 2010. These could be in school based nurseries.

 

I wonder if they have thought this through?? Who exactly is going to be looking after these children before and after school hours? Do they really think that all teachers are just going to say 'OK' and work such hours all year round??

 

I SO hope that small settings will survive

 

Oh and nearly forgot! David Hart is quoted as saying: "Schools are not surrogate parents and the strategy must not absolve parents from their prime responsibility for the upbringing of their children"

[Sue R]

Hmm, this is getting more worrying by the minute!

They appear to be overlooking the fact that teachers aren't qualified to CARE, they are qualified to TEACH! (No insult intended to teachers!! ) It's already hard enough to recruit Carers, so how are they going to sort that??

 

Hi Linda Susan, by the way!! Welcome aboard

 

Sue

[Guest Beryl]

It sounds like the government are saying that its OK for children never to spend any time with their parents, but all day in childcare. Is this the best thing for the children??

 

My cynical side says that if I go out to work and pay someone else to look after my kids that's 2 lots of taxes for the government. Perhaps this is about raising more money for the government to spend on whatever they like and not about providing more choice?

 

I work in a small privately owned pre-school with up to 17 children per session. I don't think I want to go and work 8 - 6 in an institution!!

 

OK I'll get off my soap box now.....

[Gezabel]

Who was it that said they wanted to get back to good old family values?? (or soemthing like that!)

 

It seems to me the government are spending millions to ensure children spend as much time as possible away from their parents

 

mm! better get off my soapbox now too!!

 

Long live small settings! (hopefully)

[Guest]

Interesting to see how many parents will use 'wrap around' care.

I suppose it's all about choice......

Despite having access to all day nursery provision I decided to give up my career as a teacher and be a fulltime mum while they were very small. Something which I have never regretted.

I sent my children to the local small pre-school.

My sister on the other hand didn't give up her career as a clinical pyschologist and pays for very expensive child care for two children. She says she works to pay for the childcare. Well I say to her if you stopped work you wouldn't have to pay for childcare! (and no she doesn't need to work). She missed one of her child's first steps and this upset her!

 

Our local infant and junior school have just started afterschool care after there was a positive response for the school to have one. Out of 250 pupils less than 20 use the after school club.

 

Cynical old me thought the govt. had something up its sleeve after reading how good nurseries are for children... just wanted to sweeten the bitter pill...

 

I'll join you Geraldine in saying long live the small setting!

[Guest]

I am also very cynical about the timing of the press release about the EPPE project. I find it too much of a coincidence that the findings of the research were released last week and Gordon Brown's strategic plan for childcare hot on it's heels a week later. Especially when the summary of findings were produced in March 2003!!!

I feel this government devalues the role that parents have to play in their child's development and upbringing. They are constantly telling them that they are better off in nursery and that they are doing them a great disservice if they stay at home. But the EPPE report states that "What parents and carers do makes a real difference to young children's development". If parents are interacting with their children, playing games, painting, reading to them and "creating regular opportunities for them to play with their friends at home" these factors "were all associated with higher intellectual and social/behavioural scores". So why aren't we encouraging parents to interact more with their children instead of less? I can't remember which Scandinavian country it is, but they pay a substantial amount of money for the first five years of a child's life for one parent to stay at home.

I realise that not all parents can relate in such a way with children, some people need to go to work. But I wish we could support parents to spend time with them when they are little.

Linda

[Sue R]

I've got a feeling it's Sweden, Linda, but I'm with you all the way!!

 

Sue

[hali]

I dont even want to think about it....

[Guest]

You're right Sue, it is Sweden. Just needed it confirming-thanks!

Linda

[Sue R]

Happy to oblige

 

Sue

[Guest]

Something else which brings out the cynic in me-the government has always said that the private and voluntary sector would not suffer as a result of it's changes to early years education and childcare. They insisted that we would be involved in all developments and consulted at every step of the way. But only because they had to. They had to keep us sweet otherwise they couldn't implement their policies. There was no way on this earth that they could provide free nursery education for all 3 and 4 year olds without the P and V sectors-there were nowhere near enough places in maintained nurseries. But now we are becoming surplus to requirements and being cast aside as they plough on with their "vision" for the future. They need to look at us and thank us for getting them where they are today and rewarding us with more funding for staff wages and enabling us to carry on with the great jobs we do.

If they are talking about 2 year olds starting nursery or pre-school who are they going to get to do it??

Linda

[Sue R]

Don't get me started!! You are so right and just verbalising what I've been feeling for some time!!

 

Sue

[Steve]

Now don't all shout at me - I'm not being contrary, or disagreeing with the points you've made - but:

 

It seems to me that the rapid growth of Early Years provision (which I guess everyone agrees is a good thing) has necessarily meant the government finding money to finance all sorts of initiatives. The rapid growth of surestart units, for example, has been necessary (especially in deprived areas where the government has also committed itself to universal availability for three year olds) to ensure that their own targets can be met, and has enabled the minimum 2.5 hour provision for all children to be provided.

 

But the private and voluntary sector has also been helped along hasn't it? Some excellent training and support is given by EYDCPs around the country, regardless of the type of setting which needs it. The Surestart guidance on early years provision itself commits Local Authorities to ensuring a suitable spread of types of setting, depending on local requirements (and this means small private settings and full daycare provision as well as state nursery units etc).

 

Which isn't to say that everything is right. Nursery Education Funding (NEF), Ofsted inspection systems, QA schemes etc., are all contentious areas which are rapidly evolving. Many Local Authorities favour state provision at the expense of the private and voluntary sector. But these are all continually changing in an environment which is bound to be volatile due to all the increased emphasis that is being placed on the sector.

 

Ok - you can shout if you like!

[Sue R]

Well, shucks, I guess you've got a point. It's the old story of Papers presenting news sensationally, I suppose.

I would like to shout at you though, for being so calm and male (OK!! I know you are!!) about it!!

 

I still feel very strongly about it all, though!

 

Sue

[Gezabel]

No not shouting Steve! You raise some valid points.

 

Some would say that many children ( I am thinking of those in deprived areas) now benefit thanks to surestart. I sometimes feel a need to question just how much these children benefit

 

Of course I can only speak from findings in my own setting - prior to funding we had parents who chose to send (and pay!) their children to us, they liked what we provided and saw the benefits for their children. All the parents were, in their own ways, supportive.

 

That has now changed, we have children who come to us simply because it is free and convenient and we are seen as a babysitting service and parents are not interested. (Not all of course but an increasing number ) Childrens 'masterpieces' that go home in their folders and are still there a week later untouched.

 

We discourage the children from swearing etc etc but when they go home it's the norm to hear adults swearing in everyday conversation.

 

Overall I agree it's all about choice but what about those parents who want to stay at home and spend time with their children - all the financial support available seems to be only to help with the cost of the children being outside the home.

 

Mothers who want to work can now do so with the governements financial help. What about the mothers who don't want to work but have to due to mortgage etc etc - if it was going to be a fair choice then why can't they have a financial incentive to stay at home with their children???

[Susan]

Just one point in answer to Sue-teachers are trained to teach not care--teachers do not have any more energy to put into breakfast clubs or after school clubs.

 

These wrap around care facilities will need space to operate in. Many schools do not have that and the classroom spaces should be classroom spaces or are we going to find ourselves in the same position, as others here, with an unsatisfactory sharing of space and resources situation?

 

I cant help wondering whether the logistics of all this have been thought out?

[Guest]

I agree with you Steve that many EYDCP's have provided excellent training for all settings, and Stockport has been one of these. But here they do put the maintained sector before the P and V. A classic example of this is the fact that many of our LEA nurseries are undersubscribed due to a low birth rate in the area. I was at one such nursery on Wednesday. They have 8 children attending in the afternoon. Now this is a nursery school, not a class attached to a school. They have a head teacher, a teacher, a nursery nurse and a secretary. Yet another nursery, not too far down the road has empty places in the afternoon. Why haven't they closed one and put the children into the other for the afternoons? If that was my pre-school it would not be viable to keep it open with just 8 children and 4 members of staff. We in fact did close our afternoon sessions last year because there weren't enough children. So why can local authorities run these nurseries at what must be an astronomocal amount? How can they justify keeping virtually empty nurseries going? Because, as from January they are offering early admissions to those children who have turned 3 this last term. They would not normally attend until next September. And this is where the private and voluntary pre-schools and nurseries lose out.

So yes we have had training, some areas have given good support (not here in Stockport though) but what is the point of all the training if in the end there are no settings to work in? And yes the Surestart guidance says that parents should have choice through a variety of provision, but if the way the local authority conducts it's business means that P and V settings close and they only pay lip service to the guidance then that parental choice is eroded.

And you are right Susan in asking the question have they thought this through properly? And the answer is probably no. There has always been a problem recruiting in childcare because of poor pay and conditions. There is a shortage of good, qualified people now. Where are they going to find all these extra bodies from??

Linda

[hali]

Quite agree Linda!!!

[Guest]

As you may have gathered I do not view my LEA in a good light. I realise that many of you have settings in areas where the EYDCP and the local authority are very supportive. That has never been the case for us, and as part of a local support group for pre-schools I have, with a few others, been very vocal in criticising both for quite some time. Our EYDCP has now been disbanded and they are proposing that their consultation with non-maintained settings will be in the form of an annual conference! Not exactly the best way to find out what groups want and what problems and greivances they have. Once a year?? Not good enough as far as I am concerned but, despite what we want, I'm sure this is what will happen.

Linda

[Steve]

You'll get no argument from me there Linda!

 

All I'm saying is that the rush to make sure the extra provision is in place has resulted in lots of good stuff, and that we have to put up with the fact that lots of errors have been made as well. Hopefully these errors will be ironed out over time, but in the meantime, good experienced people and settings will suffer! That's hopefully where we can help here, by pointing out the anomalies and problems (and hoping that someone takes notice).

 

People like you, who have been around since way before the time the focus of the educational establishment was on early years education, have every right to feel indignant that you are now suffering unjustifiably.

 

Many of the new establishments are staffed and managed by very inexperienced people. That is why there is a huge emphasis on inspections, monitoring, training and support. But look at the inspection results of so many experienced members of this forum, where well run settings have praise heaped on them. The early years sector needs people like these more than ever.

 

So I don't think it's a conspiracy to use and then destroy the private and voluntary sector. I think it's up to us to point out the drawbacks and problems arising as a result of all the activity and enthusiasm that is taking place, and to suggest the way forward!

 

Additionally we should be making sure that issues such as the salaries paid to early years professionals, and the ratios of staff to children are kept in the debate. It seems to me that universal provision to three and four year olds should not mean the same thing as bucket shop dirt cheap provision...

 

[bubblejack]

Tell me how we are supposed to do it Steve. Originally we were told that we would be included but the government are doing exactly the opposite.

[Guest]

What is even more worrying is that some children are going to more than one preschool.I did have the cheek to ask one parent why she sent her child to two her reply was that she wanted her child to go to our school because her daughter would mix with children that were going to the Infant school and the other preschool because they offered full days.The child also has a aupair! Think it is all very sad.

[bubblejack]

Yes some parents just don't seem to care. One of my parents is desperate for 5 sessions. I commented on the fact that it isn't always easy to find childcare to tie in with sessional care. Her answer was "I don't work but need to use up the 5 free sessions. This child attends 4 sessions with us and 1 session at a childminder but she can longer have him.

[Steve]

Um - well bubble, I'm not in a position to 'tell' anyone. But the discussions and arguments are happening now. It's good to let off steam and complain about the negative aspects of what's happening, but it's more important to suggest ways of improving the situation.

 

Organisations like the Daycare Trust are putting forward their views on what is needed to improve the quality of early years education in the future - such as improved salaries for professionals in the Foundation Stage. We should be doing the equivalent and making sure that commitments, for example, to a wide variety of early years provision are made by the organisations who determine the strategy of early years provision.

 

As to how to do it, well this forum is a good start. You'd be surprised at the number and variety of professionals who use the site. The Surestart Code of Practice is being updated at the moment for a new version due for release in spring of next year. It already explicitly commits local authorities to providing a mixed provision from maintained, private and vountary settings. This topic from earlier this year gives a bit more detail on the way the Surestart unit is trying to steer the local authorities in the direction they want them to take.

 

If we want it to be more bold in its statements, why don't we suggest some extra points it should be including, or highlight some of the areas where things seem to be going awry?

 

You and Oldtimer both have very valid points in terms of the way some parents abuse the system and are passing off their parental responsibilities to nurseries and childminders. But this is surely an unwanted byproduct rather than a strategy?

 

Hmm. I'm conscious that it sounds like I'm a government spokesperson at the moment (Dame Catherine Ashton perhaps...). I'm really not - I have no axe to grind. But I think the increasing emphasis on early years childcare ought to be an opportunity for all of us - not a burden!