Baby P

[hali]

im sorry - but am so upset - how could after Victoria and all that the government promised could this happen again?

unbelievable! all those visits to hospital - 60 visits from SS!!!!!!!

[Gezabel]

couldn't agree more Hali I heard it on the car radio on the way home and my heart just sank

[Guest]

I agree soooo much Hali. what about CAFs, not worth the paper they are - or aren't? - written on.

 

That poor baby.

 

I hope the evil adults are not allowed to take the easy option once in prison and hide in the 'protected from other prisoners wing'.

 

I have just heard a minister on radio, talking about how SS need to act as 'disturbers and not supporters of the family' as soon as they feel things are going awry - too often they carry on believing the lies spun to them.

 

NO - ONE has resigned or been sacked, 3 SS HAVE RECEIVED WRITTEN WARNINGS - disgusting!

 

JenniM

[Marion]

I'm shocked but not surprised.

For the last year or so I've been Child Protection designated teacher and have seen how Social Workers hands are tied by red tape and the law. CAF has added just another layer and another obstacle

[HappyMaz]

I'm sad to say that I'm not even shocked. I don't know the full details of the sad plight of Baby P - but wherever people are involved there might be mistakes and wrong decisions. You'd just like to think that the system would be better designed to catch them and put things right before disaster strikes.

 

For my legal context essay in my Foundation Degree I looked at just these sorts of issues: starting with Maria Colwell because it - and she - has stuck in my memory. Every time a child dies in these circumstances we wring our hands, say how terrible it is and that it must never happen again. Like many others I hoped that Lord Laming's report would make things better for all the vulnerable children. And perhas for the majority he has.

 

However, people who do bad things to children are very clever at covering their tracks and making people believe things that aren't true. I don't know what went wrong in this case - but from the sounds of it the social workers who should have been able to protect Baby P were not able to see through the lies and the deceit and the result is the death of another innocent.

 

No doubt the social workers will point to a huge workload, long hours, little supervision and low morale - but I hope there is an audit trail and it is possible to find out what happened and how things went so badly wrong for Baby P. Otherwise how on earth are we ever going to solve this problem? How many more children have to die before we get it right?

 

Maz

[Rea]

It beggers belief that something like this can still be allowed to happen.

 

Yes maz, people do make mistakes, but 60 times??? Someone needs to explain fully what the heck happened.

 

JenniM, If properly managed I'm sure it would be possible for prison wardens to leave these monsters to the rest of the inmates for a few minutes. Not exactly PC I know but honestly I dont see anything wrong with allowing these scum to know what it feels like to have untreated broken bones

[HappyMaz]

It beggers belief that something like this can still be allowed to happen. If properly managed I'm sure it would be possible for prison wardens to leave these monsters to the rest of the inmates for a few minutes. Not exactly PC I know but honestly I dont see anything wrong with allowing these scum to know what it feels like to have untreated broken bones

Please don't be offended by this question - but what if the offender was someone you know and once cared about?

[Guest]

Its disgusting and should have never been able to happpen again!!!!!

These big ideas of the CAF being put into place clearly arent happening/ or maybe it is too much red tape to get through!!!!

something clearly needs to be sorted!!!!

Why are the alarm bells not ringing when these irresponsible people are being visited something should have been done about this sooner but instead another child has died!!!!!

[Rea]

Not offended maz.

I think I'd feel somewhat the same. The person would still remain dear to me in some fashion I suppose. If my hubby was convicted of such a crime it would be difficult to erase the feelings we'd always shared and the history. He would always be the childrens dad, and my once teenage sweetheart. But, I would still understand that other people without the history and connections would want to give him a hiding.

Its natural, thankfully, that the majority of adults want to protect children and help them grow, so wanting to beat the hell of someone who deviates from that is completly understandable.

[HappyMaz]

Its natural, thankfully, that the majority of adults want to protect children and help them grow, so wanting to beat the hell of someone who deviates from that is completly understandable.

But what would that resolve? And how could you take the beatings back if years later the person is found to be innocent? The whole thing troubles me greatly.

[Guest]

clearly the systems in place to prevent thing like this happening are not working. Have any of you read Lord Lammings report after the Victoria Climbie atrocity? Not east reading but it should be read, it's hearbreaking and so damn anooying and frustrating and unnecessary.

[Guest]

I can't describe the feelings this story provokes in me, anger, deep sadness, dispare...................

 

I found the timeline of 'events' HERE -THE TIMES

 

Another story I read states the 2 men were aged 36/37, so not 'teen' dads unable to cope, their actions were of a totally sadistic nature. This is why I think they should have been convicted of MURDER, not a wooly term of conviction such as "causing / allowing death. To me causing is murder. What they don't know that breaking a baby's back and causing 60+ injuries wouldn't kill the child.

 

60 visits over 8 months, thats twice a week, mother arrested twice previously for 'assault on the child'. Child should of been on 'at risk' register in Dec 07, if not then, then definately in June 08, should have been placed on register, then when police visited placed elsewhere with an emergency care order.

 

What defies believe for me was this:

 

Aug 1: Baby P visits St Anne's hospital, allegedly suffering from fractured ribs and a broken back, paralysing him from the waist down. Dr Sabah al-Zayyat notes bruises to the body and face but does not carry out a full examination because Baby P is "miserable and cranky". In evidence, she insists "he didn't look any different from a child of his age with a common cold."

 

There were 15 bruises just around his face. He died on Aug 3rd.

 

I strongly believe jobs should be lost, even charges of professional negligence made. In fact as this child was in the same borough as Victoria Climbie, where we would think lessons had been learnt, I think the social services should go into some kind of special measures and 'experts in the field be sent in to audit and get rid of all incompetent staff/management/officials.

 

Unfortunately ( and this word I feel is an understatement), in my experience S.S. have meetings to decide whether to have meetings about a particular concern. They are tied up with P.C. concerned with parental rights, parents get legal representation about their rights to keep a child but the children don't ften get this professional 'level' of a 'voice' until the damage, or worse, is done. As soon as a parent is arrested, or has an investigation being carried out they have access to 'legal' representation or advice on their rights. The social workers and other people connected to the childs 'history/life' who attend case conferences don't have the legal expertise to truly represent the childs rights, to be the childs voice, AT THE BEGINNING OF INVESTIGATIONS. I think each local authority should have a seperate, independent legal office who's sole role is to represent the child from the outset of any investigation of concern.

This heartbreaking story concluded so quickly due to the ultimate horrific ending, if it hadn't I believe it still would have taken much longer before the child was placed in safe care. The ending is the exception but unfortunately, I think the practice is the norm. Apart from maybe the doctors lax diagnosis.

 

I bet the investigation will show that the two men had previous convictions for violence of some sort. Should we lay blame with the mother? I think yes, although often mothers get leniency because of the 'trauma of domestic violence'.

I have many moons ago been a victim of this and do understand it within the context of my own experiences. I 'got out' to keep my 6 wk old baby son safe, it was his 'life' that gave me the strength to get out of a 5 yr distructive relationship. If a mother can't get this maternal strength then I question their abilities to 'care' for their children. To me their guilt is equal. One report states that this boys mother ' put her lover before the child' at least she pleaded guilty, I hope she gets equal punishment. ( sorry if that sounds harsh or offends anyone).

 

The norm of C.P. in my experience is as a professional childcarer, I was falsely accused of hurting a child on two seperate occasions (different children), both times investigations from Ofted were vigorous and lengthy. I currently hold 3 CRB checks (yet violent men like these are enabled to live with such a vulnerable child). As a foster carer if I have a 'sitter' at home he/she has to have a CRB, yet if my 4 children are looked after at the sitters house they don't have to have a CRB.

( madness).

The norm of C.P. as a foster carer: The mother of my 4 children was known to S.S. prior to her first childs birth. Concern and investigations started when he was 2 yrs old. Along with her further 3 more children, after many meetings to decide if they needed meetings, to decide if they should be placed on the at risk register, they were - when the oldest child was 8 yrs old. It took another 2 yrs, of mum flouting the directions of S.S. of how she should care for and keep her children safe, until, in 2006 , 10 yrs after first concerns, they were placed with a foster carer on an emergency care order. The eldest one has the insight to ask why wasn't I put in care sooner. :wacko: Unfortunately I can't answer that for him. The damage caused in 10 yrs is immeasearable.

 

AAAHHH, sorry I've gone on, these issues do rake up intense feelings in many I'm sure. The frustration is that getting angry, upset ect doesn't seem to change things, headlines like this should be non excistent, confined to the past. I want a future, no tomorrow where:

1/ I never have to read anything like this again. and much more important

2/ A child never ever is ignored in this way again.

 

Just like to finish that the punishment should be life imprisonment, but carried out in a civilised manner. I don't agree with an eye for an eye, but I do believe that their civil liberty should be taken from them for as long as the childs' has, just not in the same manner.

 

Peggy

[beth1]

I have just heard on the news headlines and in chat about this. I cant belive its happened again and in the same area as Victoria too. Oh apparently they are behind bars the ones who have done it.

 

Beth

[hali]

it is awful and horriffic and i agree with you Peggy -

 

it shouldnt have happened again!1

[Guest]

I agree with Peggy to...

Its been 8 years since Victoria surely things should of improved??

This just also proves what an important job we all do and the huge responsibility we have to children in our care!!

[Rea]

But what would that resolve? And how could you take the beatings back if years later the person is found to be innocent? The whole thing troubles me greatly.

 

Possibly nothing would be resolved but I dont think a resolution is always the answer. What those people did or allowed to be done is inexcusable and I dont really care to be honest if they serve a sentence free from harrasment or get the sh*t kicked out of them.

 

If they are found at a later date to be innocent then an appology should surfice. A child has been killed in atrocious circumstances, those responsible have been tried and found guilty and then sent to a prison where, apart from the lack of freedom is better living conditions than that endured by some people in this country.

 

I agree with Peggy regarding SS in that area. An independent, fully authorised and knowledgable group need to go though ever single bit of paperwork to see what happened. Its a trgedy for Baby P and a shameful stain once again on us, that we can allow a child to be murdered, while those trained to stop this from happening can miss the signs and be duped by lies.

[HappyMaz]

I see here that Lord Laming has been asked to look again at his recommendations following his inquiry into the death of Victoria Climbie.

 

Maz

[narnia]

I am sickened by this child's death at the hands of a society which doesn't care.yes, it's society, as much as the animals who did the actual harm. I think our root problems lie in the fundamental belief that no parent would actually harm their child, so we look for excuses and reasons for injuries and blot out the unthinkable, because to raise those ugly questions puts us in the firing line, where we have to accuse and possibly be wrong.Child abuse, on every level, will NEVER go away, no matter how vigilent we are, it will always be with us.But I personally, from the bottom of my soul, would pass a death penalty on these vile murderers, yes, i completely agree they are ill, but i also believe that people who do this kind of evil can never be rehabilitated.Ande certainly the SS workers AND the doctor who so surely helped to pass a death sentence on this child should absolutely be sacked

[dublinbay]

Sharon Shoesmith, the chairman of Haringey Local Safeguarding Children Board defended the social services and said that no one should be sacked.

She said "The child was killed by members of his own family. The agencies are not responsible for his death". (Daily Telegraph 12/11/08).

 

I would like to ask her:-

 

What, then, is the role of social services, the LSCB's and anyone else who sets themselves up as defenders of childrens rights and protection?

 

I find this attitude appalling, particulatly when it comes from the agency who played their part in the murder of Victoria Climbie only eight years ago.

 

I agree that these so called family members should face murder charges with lengthy prison terms as punishment.

 

After I cried when reading the litany of events I became very angry and would agree with Rea wholeheartedly on the punishments that should be suffered by those evil people.

[Guest]

I think in some sectors it has became a 'no blame' culture, and an attitude that 'someone else will deal with it'. There doesn't seem to be any 'responsibility' for own actions (or lack of) in these cases.

 

I dislike it when my own children all pipe up 'It wasn't me, I didn't do it' or " I thought....was going to do that (a responsibility), or they tell tales on their siblings to move attention from what they themselves haven't done.

I work hard on changing these attitudes in my children, but then all around them, professionals, adults, society in general are like this.

 

Peggy

[beth1]

Well dad got home to tell me that the police was spose to be invesgating days before baby P died. Also why can they not name the parents or the lodger a few people at his work mentioned this so dad asked me and I am non the wiser.

 

 

Beth

[SueFinanceManager]

I find myself as shocked and saddened by this as the rest of you.

 

My question is how the people from SS believed the parents explainations of the child's injuries. During my nursery career I saw bumps and bruises and sadly the odd burn but I never worked with a child missing most of it's finger nails, part of a finger or earlobe!!! What possible explaination could be given to justify these injuries let alone all the others.

 

The world we live in scares me at times, yesterday a child was shot on his way to school and today two little children found dead in a home in Manchester..........what is happening to society

[Rea]

I think Peggy's observation of a 'no blame' society is on the mark. Everyone has a reason, theres always an 'underlying circumstance' and more people are willing to find excuses. The lady in charge at Haringey spoke on the news about 'good practice'. I'm filled with relief that her version of good practice isnt wide spread.

I wondered the same as you Sue, about how the injuries could have been explained away as something else.

Gordon Browns comment in the commons made me feel sick. To say that Cameron was bringing in party politics was shameful. I'm not political, the comment was shameful on a human level and should never have been said.

Its about time someone took responsibility and said sorry.

[Guest MaryEMac]

I too have been horrified at what that poor little mite went through. I read today that a social worker who lied at the Victoria Climbie investigation was the ss who sent Baby P back to his 'family'. Have they learned anything since Victoria?

 

Mary

[narnia]

and two more tots dead today, after ss had been visiting.........will it never end???

[Marion]

In defence of SS I was really shocked to discover how their hands are tied by lawyers

[Guest]

The 'responsibility' I believe goes beyond the 'social worker'. In my experience of 'social workers' as a foster carer, they are literally just the 'communicator' to their managers, they cannot make any decisions. We don't really know until the investigation what the social workers 'communicated' to their superiors which was then not acted upon, thus culminating in such dire results.

 

The responsibility is with social services, and therefore ultimately the 'head' of the department for not improving practice following from the Lord laming report.

 

I'll give an example: I, as a foster carer asked my childrens social worker if my two eldest boys could do a paper round, she did not have the authority to answer, it had to go to her supervisor, who then had to ask the team manager. This process took 3 weeks.

We are currently discussing contact agreements for our children which have been going on for 18 mths, when I asked the supervisor what the court ordered, he didn't know. In other words basics are not followed.

 

In other words there are too many people covering each others backs resulting in no REAL communication UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.

 

Social workers training does not include contact with children. It is way back here, at the start of their professional training that changes need to be made too.

 

Agree about Gordon Browns comments being totally out of order.

 

Panorama is reporting on the Baby P story on Monday night 8pm

 

Peggy

[Guest]

I find it so sad that this has happened again. What is really disgusting is that nothing was done and yet we are still using the same systems that obviously do not work. I also think the age old problem of too much work and not enough funding/training is happening here. What I'm really struggling with here is how nothing was done after so many signs. I know it's a difficult area but do we need to start acting first then asking questions later as so much protocol gets in the way of children's welfare and as in this case means loss of life. Have we really become a society like this? It makes me so sad especially when you see on the news the money being ploughed into banks and not the really important and long term solutions to our society.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Guest

[beth1]

Panorama is reporting on the Baby P story on Monday night 8pm

 

Peggy

 

Well it was at 8.30pm and do doubt will be on BBC iplayer later on. It showed how close the house was to where Victoria Climibea (sp) lived. It even mentioned that the children who had contact are struggling to understand what has gone on with him.

 

 

Beth

[Guest]

Im not sticking up for the "said social workers" but I have had a serious child protection case and had to make the call to Social Services (wondering whether i was doing the right thing! but being reassured by all of my staff i was!) and he was a known case two social workers were with me within 20 mins and dealt with very professionally and quickley, child got taken to hospital and was subsequently taken from mum.

As it was the first time for dealing with something so serious i felt quite upset as the parents and other family members all turned up at the setting at the same time as the children were due to go home! and shouted ,screamed and swore very loudley calling me all thenames under the sun. for ruining their family.

But I know I did the right thing when social services told me that i was the last bit of the jigsaw and thats what was needed to get him taken away.

I can do nothing but praise my local social services as the sais child is on the register and checked very regularly.

Its a good job people like us are on the ball and arn,t afraid to make the call however distressing it seems at the time.