JacquieL Posted July 7, 2004 Posted July 7, 2004 Our new Head is introducing pupil tracking from Nursery entry from next year using PIV)Ts which is based on the P levels. This is for target setting and Perfomance Managment. Has anyone any experience of this? I am concerned about setting targets for FS as they are all so variable in their development.
Susan Posted July 7, 2004 Posted July 7, 2004 Hi Jackie, this causes me great concern, rightly or wrongly I'm not sure. In my opinion your targets are already set-they're called ELGs and the document that supports them is the profile and FS curriculum guidance, of course. I was asked to track progress for literacy and numeracy at half termly intervals and to have regard to all points in all scales, except communication at all times. This I felt was unnecessarily burdensome and defaeted the profile objectives and made our curriculum very literacy and numeracy biased which I had been fighting to get away from and was just succeeding! I don't know PIVATS but P levels as I understand it were introduced for NC pre level 1 and are not necessarily relevant to FS. If they are, why did they devise ELGs?! As for performance management when each and every cohort of children can vary greatly I can't come to terms with that one either but I know that is quite common place. Seems to me the needs of the child are completely disregarded. Hope someone else might have some useful ideas for you.
Guest Posted July 7, 2004 Posted July 7, 2004 I'm not sure I can add much to Susan's reply but I do know that' we've been having a debate about p scales in our school. I WILL NOT use them in Reception as they are not appropriate for children who are working in the Foundation Stage. I am also strogny urging Y1 not to assess children against p scales in the Autumn Term, as the whole point of the Foundation Stage curriculum and profile is that children can continue working on it when they enter Y1, if necessary. Therefore Y1 should also be assessing against the ELG's if NC doesn't yet apply. I will not budge on this. Why should I assess twice? And the ELG's relate to development of young children. P scales relate to development of children with SEN. Being yound is not a special need!!! Hope this is of some help, as you see I feel quite strongly about this! Dianne xxx
Guest Posted July 7, 2004 Posted July 7, 2004 PS sorry about all the typo's - it's been a long day! Dianne xxx
Susan Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Well said Dianne. My 5 year old nephew has just brought home his report from school where he has been reported as working at "w". It also says that the Foundation Stage Profile has been fully reported to parents, but my sister doesnt know what I'm talking about! There is absolutely no way this child is not acheiving ELGs so how is he "w"? Which he shouldn't be, of course, anyway! Teacher says verbally don't worry I don't agree with that. The school has also used NFER 5 tests for maths and English for which he scored in mid 80s. All that proves to me is how inappropriate the tests were. What a shame that he and his class mates have been subjected to this!
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Susan is this the same nephew with the worksheet?!! is it any wonder that parents still dont know what is being reported to them or the significance of the ELGs. Perhpas they should have input early on in the year and then they too can see the progress theri child has made. P scales are for children with special needs and are not to be used within the foundation stage. thats what the stepping stones are for.
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 During our LEA moderation cluster meeting, we were specifically told by the Early Years team that P levels should not be used as a means of assessing the children in FS. They said that they are highly aware of Year One requiring something that they understand (!) but that P levels are used for special needs children only. When questioned about what they (LEA) were going to do to back the FS up on this they answered that in the near future they are planning on delivering courses for Y1 teachers on how to use the FS profile as an assessment that informs their planning. In theory this sounds great - getting Y1 in the know and allowing Reception teachers to feel that their assessment and hard work is valuable to anyone other than the authority/government, but in practice, I know that in my school the Y1 teachers are highly focused on the children moving on through the NC as fast as possible - there's not much scope for still working on the ELGs unfortunately. D xxx
Susan Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 In my LEA the need to train yr1 teachers in Profile and FS has been identified but isn't it a shame that the Lea has to do this? Shouldn't it be part of the school life, so to speak. I know I cascaded training on FS to whole staff team but was never asked to do so for the profile. I'm certainly convinced the powers that be needed that training too!! NO wonder we are all in such a mess! NC & SATs are the task masters and the target setting and performance management, league tables etc aren't far behind. Even Ofsted is to blame as its so difficult to break out of the mould as an individual and do the other thing. I've been up against that one too! Yes Leo what a good memory you have, same nephew! My sister can't take on board what I am telling her when school are operating so differently and its not fair of me to be too critical either.
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Hi Interesting debate going on here. My FSP were handed on to the Y1 teacher yesterday (she came in specially as she works at a different school at the moment)This morning they were still sitting where I had left them for her. Apparently she was not interested in them at all. I bet you can all guess how I felt about that?!?! mousebat
JacquieL Posted July 8, 2004 Author Posted July 8, 2004 I think we are going to use the point scores from the PIVATs to target-set children and then these points and the progression will also be used to assess the teachers for performance management. The 'average' point score will be looked at to see wether the children have made the expected progress. In the PIVATS document which is from Lancashire, (and is a good document for KS!/2 special needs) it says to be used to track children from Foundation Stage onwards alongside the Proflle. I just don't believe that Fs children move along through targets in a preidicatable manner.
Guest Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 In my school they have used the PIPS assessments to track the children's attainment throughout their year in Reception. As an NQT I was impressed at how much the FS co-ordinator and nursery nurses talked about them at the beginning of the year and expected something outstanding. Shame that after doing them I'm not as hyper about them as the others are. The LEA have said that PIPS shouldn't be used in Reception as it is not what they can read etc that should be assessed etc. The team were talking about the results today saying how much Y1 don't like Reception doing the PIPS because it shows such an improvement in their attainment (value added etc). Thing is, the kids are going to learn whatever we do but I don't see how the PIPS show just how much - it simply shows how many letters they remember or what number they can count to blah blah. Can't understand how it is something that the team are overly proud of when compared with what the children have learnt in other ways i.e. social development etc. It is not shown there, but it doesn't seem to be a matter of discussion when needing 'graphable results' as it is not something they can measure. Has anyone found anything that does this or is remotely better than PIPS??? The Profile has much potential - but is so not the way to go about assessment in the FS. D xxx
Steve Posted July 8, 2004 Posted July 8, 2004 Sorry to drop in so late to this conversation, but I've just read through it and remembered a good discussion we had late last year about the useage of p scales in the Foundation Stage. It's quite long but worth reading as Rosie Jackson, who specialises in SEN was very firmly against the idea and put up a good argument. You can read the topic by clicking here. Hope it helps!
fay Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 In my school there has been alot of pressure to P scale our reception children because the ELGs and FSP scores are regarded as "meaningless" by key stage 1 and 2. I have protested against this for two years but the SMT say that I will be required (by the government) to do it from 2005 so I should start now. Has any one had any information on this? Fay
Guest Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 p scales as are chidlren iwth special needs and not for reception and nursery chidlren. You can go blue in the face informing the KS1 teachers but will they listen. I'm sure the govt has not asked for this (yet)
Susan Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Well if thats right, I'm speechless! haven't heard that but will listen harder! but as Leo says P scales are for SEN within NC not for FS. Theres an almost identical thread now here.
mundia Posted July 14, 2004 Posted July 14, 2004 Hi fay. Leo is correct, there is no requirement for you to do this. This is clearly documented in the FSP handbook, which you could try waving under their noses. You cannot be expected to do this, and if they insist, then they will have to take responsibilty for it. You could also ask for the documentation that leads them to believe that this will be a requirement in the future. If you are really struggling on this one, as a number of schools are, try your EY adviser as they should be well informed on the issue.
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