Do You Have To Have A Qualified Teacher In Nursery?

[MrsL]

Hi everyone,

this may be a really silly question but my HT has got me confused! I am foundation leader in a maintained primary, and my HT says she has heard that we may have to have a qualified teacher in the nursery from September. She then said that if this is true we may have to have a qualified teacher in the play group too, and even lunch club!

This doesn't seem likely to me, especially the playgroup and lunch club bit.

Can anyone enlighten me?!

[Susan]

You need to look at the EYFS spec. Its in there!

[catma]

I think you should have a qualified teacher in there already - nursery class ratios are 2: 26 with one being a QTS and the other a level 3 or above. Still the same in sept a s school class ratios unchanged. So if you don't have a teacher I think you ought to check it out to be honest.

 

Cx

[MrsL]

We've had 2 Nusery nurses in charge for donkeys years, a lot longer than I have been there, and they have been ofsteded before with no problem. I've only just taken over as FS leader and am still trying to get my head round it all, as we have just bought the playgroup and started the lunch club and the flexi time! So confusing!

[Guest]

We are a maintained nursery and we have a qualified teacher in the nursery. We do have extended services in the same building (lunch club and afternoon child care) which is run as a pvi setting and staffed by a level 3 TA and a level 2 TA (for 16 children) - ratios 1-8 as there is not a qualified teacher present with the children. This is consistent with the EYFS ratios.

 

BTW our ratios in nursery worsen with the EYFS as we have 40 children per session. We used to have to have 2 qualified teachers with 2 nursery nurses. In September we only need 1 QTS and at least 1 level 3 TA or nursery nurse with 2 other members of staff (or only 1 extra if we are not full i.e. 39 children instead of 40)

 

Sue

Edited March 31, 2008 by Guest

[catma]

If it's a nursery class within the school then I'm surprised!

 

Cx

[Guest]

Lots of school nurseries in my LA are lead by nursery nurses.This has been a cost cutting exercise by lots of heads especially in 20/20 settings. Many are also for 39 children and therefore stafffing costs drop.It happened when my children were at nursery that their setting dropped from 40-2 teachers, 1 NN, 1 TA to 39,1 teacher,1NN, 1 TA.At the moment if there is an absence in my school they do a nursery head count and if we are below 26 a staff member is reallocated elsewhere.

 

The EYFS has put many schools in a panic over ratios and staffing.

[Guest Wolfie]

Not much to add except that I know at the maintained nursery school that I sometimes work at, 4 out of the 5 groups are led by nursery nurses but the Head and Assistant Head are qualified teachers and they're not allowed to open the nursery unless one of them is on the premises.

Edited April 1, 2008 by Wolfie

[surfer]

If you look at this appendix from the EYFS document I think you will find that in part 9 it does state that nurseries in maintained settings should have a QTS.

 

http://www.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/eyfs/reso...y-frame-app.pdf

 

If there is no QTS than the ratio has to be adjusted to 1:8

[MrsL]

Thanks everyone, not sure that is going to convince my HT that we need a QTS as it says 'where a QTS is not working with the children....' which I'm sure she will take as we don't HAVE to have one. I'm sure she thinks that as I have QTS and am FS leader that I can 'over see' what is happening in the nursery and that this is ok! And as the document says 'where QTS is not working directly with the children......' she will think that is what we have at the moment.

 

Thanks so much for helping though!

[Shiny]

It depends if you are a maintained nursery school or a nursery class in a maintained school. If you are one of these you do need a QTS.

[MrsL]

we are a primary school, with our own nursery.

[Shiny]

we are a primary school, with our own nursery.

 

Would that make you a maintained school with a nursery class? I would get HT to get clarification from LA!

[Marion]

A primary school with a nursery ~ maintained school with a nursery class.

Mrs L what ratios are you working to?

 

EYFS states Children aged three and over in maintained nursery schools and nursery classes in maintained schools

there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

at least one member of staff must be a school teacher as defined by Section 122 of the Education

Act 2002 and the Education (School Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) Regulations 2003;

at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 o

[MrsL]

We are working to the ratio of 1 to 13 for nursery children and I think it is 1 to 8 with the preschool children in the afternoon.

It seems clear to me that we do have to have a qualified teacher in the nursery from September, I was looking at the bit for independent schools which is obviously the wrong bit so my post earlier was a load of rubbish!

I just hope this convinces my HT! I'm sure she thinks it's ok as long as I am 'overseeing' things, which does not seem to be the case and I always had my doubts it would be!

[MrsL]

Still not sure on preschool and lunch club though, as the preschool is part of the school, do the qualifications have to be the same but with a 1 to 8 ration? Or is a level 3 with some level 2's ok?

[Marion]

When you say pre school do you mean before school or under 3s?

 

"Children aged three and over in any registered early years provision

6 Between the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant, and defined by CWDC) is working directly with the children, the following requirements apply:

there must be at least one member of staff for every 13 children;

at least one other member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 (as defined by CWDC).

 

7 At any time outside the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, or between the hours of 8 am and 4 pm but where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant, and defined by CWDC) is not working directly with the children, the following requirements apply:

 

there must be at least one member of staff for every eight children;

at least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 (as defined by CWDC);

at least half of all other staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 (as defined by CWDC).

Edited April 1, 2008 by Marion

[MrsL]

Sorry, I mean under age 3.

What I'm not sure on is, (sorry I know I must be coming across as a bit thick!) where it says:

Between the hours of 8 am and 4 pm, where a person with Qualified Teacher Status, Early Years Professional Status or another suitable level 6 qualification (which is full and relevant, and defined by CWDC) is working directly with the children, the following requirements apply:

does that mean that really we should have this, or is it just advising what to do if you don't have this and that it's ok not to have it.

I hope that makes sense! Again I am so sorry for going on, I just want to get my facts straight about what is advised and what is statutory etc.

And does this apply for under 3's.

Edited April 1, 2008 by MrsL

[MrsL]

My last post doesn't even make sense to me any more, goodness knows how any of you are supposed to know what I mean!

[MrsL]

Ok, I'll try again, this is more to clarify in my own head!

We have to have a qualified teacher in nursery as we are a maintained school.

 

For under age 3 we have a ratio of 1 to 8, but at the moment we have 2 NN at level 3 and not sure which level the other staff are. And for lunch club we have a level 3 NN.

Is this ok or is it changing for under 3's?

[Shiny]

Hi MrsL

 

The EYFS states that:

 

"Children aged two in any early years group setting

 

there must be at least one member of staff for every four children;

 

at least one member of staff must hold a full and relevant level 3 (as defined by CWDC);

 

at least half of all other staff must hold a full and relevant level 2 (as defined by CWDC)."

 

You don't need a QTS in preschool, or lunch club. You do need ratio 1:4 and at least 1 level 3, and at least half remaining staff must be level 2 or above. These ratios are for under 3 year olds which I think you have. How many children do you have at the preschool?

 

Don't worry we all get ourselves in a pickle at times!!

 

Shiny

[MrsL]

Thanks for that shiny, it's all a lot clearer now! Not sure how many children we will have in September and it's all a bit confusing as Nursery children can also stay in the afternoon whe the preschool children attend so we have mixed 2 year olds and 3 year olds, which is why we need to work out our ratios very carefully!

Felt very silly getting in a pickle, so you have made me feel better!

[Guest budgie1]

Hi there, Just thought I would let you know that I am currently FS Team leader in a Surrey school and we are in the awful process of making our nursery staff redundant. We currently have an excellent nursery manager who is NNEB, a nursery nurse and a nursery assistant, all this is overseen by me but Surrey said that is was not enough as i wouldnt be in nursery on a daily basis ( I teach in the Reception class) Thus we have to make the nursery manager and the nursery assistant redundant to get a QTS in. It is so sad as they have done a brilliant job (gaining "outstanding" from Ofsted). Still thats the new law so we havent had much choice. It is sad to lose such good quality staff though.!

[Shiny]

Budgie1 - That is awful, as you said it is sad to lose good staff!! But the law is the law!

 

MrsL - Glad it is a bit clearer now!! This whole process is very tricky. Sounds like you have some serious number juggling to do. Good luck, and shout if you need any more help/clarification, we can but try!!

[Inge]

Just if not even more sad that the children now lose someone to help them.. one pair of hands less to do the same work!

hope your new QTS can can grow that extra set of arms, eyes and hands she will need.

 

Inge

[Guest]

Not a nice position for the OTS to find themselves in either.Replacing staff made redundant wouldn't be my choice.

[MrsL]

Budgie1 that is very similar to our situation, I am overseeing things in our nursery run by 2 nursery nurses. I don't want to think about what will happen in September now that the law has changed, it will be very difficult.

 

Shiny, thanks again!

[Guest budgie1]

Mrs L,

We started the process back in October and it has been a really long one with unions, governors and HR involved. Morale is really low at the moment, for the staff working in the nursery knowing that they are going it is awful to have to continue with a smile and do parent visits etc. The fact that they are still carrying on shows just how wonderful they are. Our nursery manager (NNEB) could have stayed on as the nursery nurse role and kept her income as it would be protected but she felt (understandably) that she did not want to work under someone when she had been running the place for so long. It is also hard for whoever does go to nursery, What a mess!!

[Guest]

Please can someone explain to me how replacing two staff who are qualified in early years being replaced by one QT who may not have 3-5 training/ experience and at best be reception can possibly be seen as either progress or right. I feel furious that QTS is seen as being the perfect qualification for 2/3 year olds. Guess what ..... it just might not be! We are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

p.s. Sorry but i feel so strongly about this

[HappyMaz]

Our nursery manager (NNEB) could have stayed on as the nursery nurse role and kept her income as it would be protected but she felt (understandably) that she did not want to work under someone when she had been running the place for so long. It is also hard for whoever does go to nursery, What a mess!!

This is quite an understandable reaction, isn't it? That's the thing about initiatives - the people who come up with the bright ideas are never the ones who have to live with the consequences. Whoever is lucky enough to employ these lovely people will really appreciate their loyalty and professionalism. Nowhere near Maidenhead are they?

 

Maz