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'tricky' Scale Points Psed


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Hi there

I'm a reception practitioner and also a profile moderator. On my moderation visits I have discovered that practitioners (including myself!) are finding the scale points related to culture and beliefs (SD Point 7 &, ED Point 6) generallly harder to make judgements on. :o

I was wondering if anyone out there is finding the same and more importantly how they are tackling the issue

 

The FSP handbook is a good first port of call with real-life examples of these scale points being met, but I thought if other people were feeling the same then maybe we could get some discussion going on how to approach these points particulaly for next year.

 

Many of us through topic work are doing great things at times like Divali, Christmas, Chinese New Year etc, but what we need is to be providing our children with an enriched curriculum throughout the year in order for children to begin to have a developing respect and understanding for...

Would love to hear anyones thoughts on this :)

liza

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My Nursery Class colleagues and I do find it very difficult to make judgements on these particular aspects of PSED. Our Nursery has children from many different cultures and so we have a wealth of experiences through the children's own lives. However it is one thing giving the children the experiences, it's another thing making that judgement on individual children whether they do have " a developing respect for culture and beliefs of other people and of themselves" or that "people have different needs, views, cultures and beliefs", etc. This is definitely the area that we spend most time deliberating over and wondering what evidence is enough to give that point to the child.

 

We do feel that our children are very unaware of differences amongst themselves as they play and socialise with other children from many different cultures. They often do not notice differences in skin colour, etc. They are all just children playing happily together.

 

:o

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Hi,

I'm not actively involved in the profiles, but, like you, find difficulty in reports and ROAs for the chn in my DN in these aspects.

 

It seems a bit sad, when you remark, Jackie, that your chn don't notice differences and play together happily that we should have to tie ourselves up in knots like this - although I appreciate we have to make some judgments regarding progress towards the ELGs.

 

Sorry, nothing really useful, just a comment! :o

 

Sue :D

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HI

I agree that these points are the most difficult to assess. And I use that word in the broadest sense.

I work in a large multicultural school and I would hope from the input in festivals and celebrations that the children have that they are beginning to develop awareness but the children overwhelming accept one another and as Jackie says do not really notice diferences and certainly don't make comments of the nature described in the Profile Handbook! Drawings are almost always the first colour that comes to hand or the favourite of the moment! I had a range of skin tone pencils that I have tried in vain to keep separated from the others but I've never seen one selected for a specific purpose such as representing themselves in that way!

Children are ready to claim of ownership to any festival that comes along, rarely discriminating in any way.

Last year I refused to "score" any of those points as although I felt the range of activities and experiences that we had offered should have allowed a developing awareness I felt my children were still far too egocentric to score with any certainty- it had to be an all or nothing and we plumped for nothing!

This year my feeling is much the same. I am the trained moderator in my school but unfortunately due to my ill health have not been there to do so. Nor have I visted other settings in this capacity, but I did not score on the profiles that I completed for the spring term.

 

Moving to the other extreme if a child makes a comment as to the differences between themselves we have to report it and report it as a possible racial incident to the LEA detailing how it has been dealt with.

The African Caribean dinner lady was horrified and upset when a child observed that 'she had black skin didn't she?'

So altogether a tricky one! :o

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Yeah, stuck out here in Kent it's quite a hard one to assess - we do our best but a lot of the children only develop limited awareness. Last year I just didn't fill it in for anyone, I think - maybe 1 or 2 this year who have had different experiences at home. It's a real toughie, & I am trying to address the issues in class, but it's not that easy, is it!!!

 

Dianne xxx

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I felt the exact same way about the cultural aspect. I agree with the egocentric comment and feel that it refers to other stepping stones where it suggests that the children take into account the oppinions and views of others. I discussed this with my FS and she is as stumped as I am but felt that the children do display respect for different cultures by their respecting us the teachers. I work in a classroom with 100% Asian children and she feels that by them respecting us they are respecting another culture. Was not too sure as to that being a true reason for ticking it off, but this is how she is judging her class, so I had to follow suit. There are also other areas where they were cloudy and the FS profile guidance does not offer true examples of the children in my school - if I went by their examples my children would not score very high. As much as I am very fond of the document to send home, I am having more stress over this document at the moment and do not really feel that it shows a true profile of the children's achievements. Any comments?

 

D xxx

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I have had exactly the same problem in assessing on these scales and this has proved difficult on all my moderation visits. Our EY Advisor says use a best fit model, but I can't say I am really comforatble with that. In my own class the children who can score are the children from ethnic minority groups who comment on the cultural differences and enjoy celebrations with their white British classmates.

It seems to me to be a very sophisticated concept to understand and respect another's culture etc. I wonder how many of our older children 'really' meet that judgement? I could understand a statement that says experiencing and enjoying, but not one that expects understanding. Some of these profile statements are very woolly, especially for people who are telling me that their children are scoring a 9.

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I have no 'exceptional' children in any of the profile areas this year (of course, they're all exceptional in their own ways!), & am quite determined that no-one is getting a nine - it puts a lot of pressure on Y1 I think. I have just reviewed the class for Dispositions & Attitudes, and was pleasantly surprised at how many had the other 8 though (but point 9's very very hard to give!) :D

 

Dianne xxx

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I agree with you Dianne about the '9's. I think they could really do with explaining further with more concrete examples. And I do think they have to be pretty excpetional to achieve the 9s in most areas- I think the figures I read last year were 2% of children were expected to get a 9 in one or more area of learning. It does as you say, put a lot of pressure on year 1 and 2 to get the 'value added' then.

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I also find it difficult with some of the points.... The PSED one about understanding needs and culture... this year I have found easier as I have a French boy in my class and the children all express how he speaks differently to us. I also have 4 children who intergrate into my class every wednesday afternoon, from a special school and thay have learnt about how people are different and how to communicated using gesture rather than speach..... I am hoping that with that and them supporting a couple of children who find it hard to behave... eg. holdong the childs hand and leading him in a line or to an activity that is enough information to say thay have some understanding. :o

 

L

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I find this a tricky one as well because i find that the chidlren take each other at face value and do not discriminate between each other. Surely that is the best sort of accecptance. My chidlren see me as their teacher who is brown-(not black) becuse we have examined our skin tones and discovered that black and brown are not the same xD

We speak baout people form different cultures in UK and in the world but it is a tricky ocncept in small village schools when chidlren and adults have no contact with other cultures. So in that respect my chidlren are very lucky to have a Nursery teacher who can introudce them to a different culture

 

But the problem I have is that I am very hesitant to celebrate Diwali in case parents see it as "being different"or that I am foisting my religion on the children. :(

 

Which is funny becuse we celebrate Chinese new year , jewish festivals when we can and ofcourse christmas and easter.

 

So it must be my mental block :o

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Leo,

I can understand your reticence, everyones interpretation of their faith is a personal thing. I used to be uncomfortable teaching RE as a Christian to predominantly Christian children, in case my interpretation was different to their parents.

 

In the multicultural setting that I now work I actually find it easier. I talk to the children about what happens in my house and encourage them to tell me what happens in theirs, at the appropriate times.

I am sure your children would be fascinated and accepting if you talked about Diwali in a similar vein. We also have staff from a wide range of backgrounds who share with the children their experiences, we show special clothes and make simple foodstuffs.

I'm sure noone could object to that.

 

I recently went on a RE for Foundation Stage afternoon and that was exactly what was being suggested, along with Festival type RE "storysacs".

So you would only be delivering the curriculum not seeking converts!

 

Good luck.

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good idea Leo. :o

 

We always have a lovely time at Diwali, even though most of our children are Moslem. As you say, the children take it all on board, you wouldnt be teaching anything outside of the curriculum so I cant see that your parents could complain. xD

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Glad I'm not alone finding this area tricky. I decided to try doing my register in other languages and encouraging a response in that language. For French I say Bonjour and their name and hope for Bonjour Madame in return, we also do a sung one in French 'Est-ce que (name) et la' and they reply je suis la (now when someone is absent the children will usually respond appropriately with il n'est pas la or elle n'est pas la and now understand il est en vacances or il est malade. For Spanish we just say Hola and the child's name, they respond hola (Senora proved rather difficult and we gave up!) I have a Chinese boy in class who taught us 'Jo san' which I think means good morning and Ni Hao (how are you - I think?) and there is also a half Dutch boy who has taught us Ben yi (y followed by I sound) hier (Are you here?) they respond ja (yes) or ney (sounds like neigh) if someone is absent. Initially they all thought ney was very funny may be the link with the horse noise. Now they have all got used to it and seem to respect it as something special for Matthew. I wonder if all that warrants a score. What I've been suprised at is how even reluctant speakers and those with speech disorders have all picked up really good accents and have no fear of speaking aloud in the foreign languages. We have also done a bit of singing in other languages which they have all enjoyed.

 

Sorry to ramble on and for no idea of how to spell words in Dutch!

 

Angela

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Not rambling at all, Angela! well done!! :D

 

Yes Leo, definitely go for the personal celebration, makes it far more relevant for littlies anyway doesn't it and who knows what interest you might be able to spark. Have fun.

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Hello everyone!

im new to this site what a wonderful site it is! thanks to all those who gave me advice on my moderation visit (which was today!) :o It went very well considering i havent as yet had any training, the moderator seemed happy with the evidence I had collated - post its, photos and planned observations, I work for Tameside LEA and the general feel here to is that some areas of the profile are very wooly indeed. I feel alot happier now this is over till next year by which the moderation will take place in the form of a cluster group! Anyone else having this?

thanks again for the well informed advice xx xD

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me again!

Another point which i feel you all should know- point 9 in KUW is virtually impossible! The moderator said they had analysed this particular point and because of the content it more suitably lends itself to level 2 National Curriculum!!!! She went on to say certain aspects of it are bordering on level 3!!! :o

I was dumfounded!!

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Glad it went well Gertie, my LEA is visiting 50% of settings for moderation and unvisited settings have had to undertake to attend a cluster meeting for same.

As I'm off sick, I haven't actually been involved in either! but I can appreciate your relief.

I'm not surprised what you were told re levels of point 9, I believe other scales are also as high.

I'm beginning to think we should be bycotting the profile never mind SATs!!

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If point nine is so high, how can it be that we are expected to get most children to point 8? Or isn't that true?? If it is true then surely the gap between all 8 points & point 9 is far to large?

 

Very confused now!!! :o

 

Dianne xxx

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Hi I am new to this site

 

I too am having problems with the respecting other cultures etc. regarding profile points (not personally obviously )- I am in a one form entry primary in a northern ex mining town. We have done the chinese new year and did mange to get the children to notice differences between european and chinese new year - Does it count? We also do registration in different languages - spanish and french - was thinking of doing german but they are all still european so not really too different are they? Would it count?

 

And what about the CLL linking sounds and letters? I have children who know most if not all of phonic sounds and can identify and write the relevant letter/s a-z, th,sh,ch but when it comes to alphabet names they are a bit lost. Though majority can sing the alphabet. I taught phonics first so as not to confuse children and now realise that according to the points i can award - they have missed out. The examples in the handbook don't show that the children know them all so can i tick box or not?

 

sorry but i am getting down about some aspects of this because the children have come so far - for them not to have their achievements recognised because they only fulfil one part of the criteria..

 

Ellie

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Hi Ellie

I have welcomed you in elsewhere but welcome again!

I'm afraid I became very disillousioned with the profile last year for just the sort of issues you raise. I found it very difficult to feel that I was celebrating success for the children in my school who had made such tremendous progress but who could not acheive/ score the point- especially the CLL point you specify.

I think it is important to realise that point 9 is in many scales is becoming recognised as the equivalent to NC level 2s, not just beyond ELGs. You need also to look at the wider implications of what you are saying about children when scoring points 4-8 re the population of your school and SATs attainment. That sounds awful but if you score too highly now you are pperhaps setting child and school up for "failure" later on.

However, you should be able to use the moderating process to address these issues and the support of others in your LEA. Do you have cluster groups where you can talk about thses very pertinent issues.

I looked forward to the demise of Baseline Assessment and the introduction of the profile but have not become any more enamoured of it second time around and actually feel that it is quite controversial.

 

So while I agree with your concerns and comments I think we should be scoring points very cautiously. If you are using the document to report to parents or transfering to yr1 then I think you record the childs success as an appropriate comment alongside the point in question.

 

But I aslo think it becomes a very demoralising exercise for the teacher and

I'm actually begining to think I would support a boycott the profile movement!

 

Good luck.

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Hope this doesn't sound like a silly question! but here goes..

 

 

If we have children of different cultures playing happily along side each other how do we know that they don't notice the difference? Could it be they do notice but choose not to comment and just accept each other for who they are regardless of skin colour.

 

 

We had a little african girl in our setting who was as popular as any other child and shortly before she left for school was part of a group of 4 little girls who would be leaving us to go to the same school. One day one of them brought in her 'baby' a baby sized doll that was oohhed and ahhhed over by her friends. The other three quickly followed suit and the little african girl brought in her black doll. "Ooooooooooh! " said one of her friends (and I waited for the comment on the colour of the doll!) " I love your dolls dress, its sooooo soft and pretty!"

 

It just got me thinking! They must have noticed the colour of the doll but no one mentioned it! It was the same with the little girl - no one commented on the colour of her skin in the two terms she was with us.

 

AS for the comment about the dinner lady - what a shame she was so upset - I would think very young children are incapable of being racist in the true sense of the word. I remember years ago one of my sons asked (in a loud voice of course!) "Mummy, why has that man got no hair" the elderly bald gentleman found it quite amusing.

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Geraldine your story reminds me about the time when my son now age 32 kept talking about a new friend he had made at school. I think he was then about mid juniors. His new friend enjoyed football he went to afterschool sports clubs. One day he asked him round to our house after school. His new friend was black . After he had gone home I commented to my son that I didn't realise that his friend was black to which he replied "Did it matter". No I don't think that young children think that it is important.

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children are more accepting of differences and more matter of fact about it. The fact that they accept other people as a 'whole' rather than picking out differences or similarities is what should count.

 

However, I do think it is important that children who have no experience of other cultures should have the opportunity to expereince aspects of it at school/nursery/pre-school. But they should be introduced to the fact that there are other grups of people living in England and not have the stereotypical view of black people being poor and only living in Africa (and in mud huts) - I can't stand Handa's surprise of this reason. It's alright if you live in a multicultual area but if not............ :o

 

Celebrate the chinese new year by all means but remenber that there are people of chinese origin living in England and they don't all have a 'take away'!!!!

 

Young chidlren may not be prejudiced but soemwhere along the line they pick up prejudices of the adults around them so it is important that we in the Early Years address this .

 

I had a mother who last year came over out of the blue to apoligise to me-after her daughter had left my nursery class. She had been very stand offish, reluctant to talk to me- always seeking out the TA and never looked me in the eye. Being 'different' it is quite easy for me to spot these negative vibes. The mother apologised that in spite of her behaviour towards me, I had not been any different to her daughter but treated her the same as all the other chidlren. The little girl did not want to leave my class and retunred to us at every opportunity- play time etc.

 

Should I pointed out - Her prejudice was her problem not mine ? xD

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Hey, leo,

Sorry for that experience. I find it really badmannered when that sort of thing happens. I think if I'd have been your TA I would have got into a lot of trouble!!!

 

Sue :D

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hello all

To hopefully shed some light on the difficult points - SD7 and ED6 , During my recent moderator's visit she suggested that for instance if you did a topic on Divali or chinese new year and the children were enthused and interested, If they didnt show any adverse reaction ie in her words 'laughed and showed disrespect' then you could assume that the children had 'Understood that people have different needs, views, cultures and beliefs that need to be treated with respect' SD7 and

'Has a developing respect for own culture and beliefs and those of other people' ED6. She went on to say that 'own culture' could include the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy and Santa! Hope this has been helpful. :o

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That was an interesting and helpful post Gertie - I've found with a few of the profile points that when you read them they seem pretty hard for a 4/5 year old to achieve, & then when you refer to the guidance that they're not so bad after all. But they are not as clear and precise as they need to be, are they!? :o

 

It's definitely already time for some kind of review & I agree with Susan that I'm more dishillousioned with them this year - It must be having more time to think about it, I think.

 

Also, it takes me 20-30 mins a night to keep on top of the whole observations thing, and I don't think that's an appropriate amount of time to be spent recording things. I'd prefer to be reflecting, planning and preparing more in that time instead. xD

 

Dianne xxx

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hi Diane & Gertie,

interesting points you both have and I think reflect my own disillousionment. If we were to score points as is suggested by the handbook then I think most children would attain 8s & 9s in all scales and with the matching to NC this isn't really very realistic, is it?

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