FSP scores and NC levels

[Guest]

Hi everyone

I am in need of some serious help!!! My headteacher has asked me to convert the FSP scores into p-levels/national curriculum levels for the Year 1 teachers (and also so she can make predictions for the end of key stage 1).

 

As much as I have explained this is not appropriate and goes against all the early years guidance and ethos, she is having none of it!! I understand she is under pressure from Ofsted and the local authority to do this!!!

 

I have been trying to work out a system/correlation but unsurprisingly it is really difficult!!! I just wondered if anyone else out there has been forced into doing this and whether they have any advice or examples!!

 

She is basically asking me to say if a child is emerging then they are ___ p-level etc

 

Please help!!!

[catma]

If such a system existed it would exist. Are these children SEN? P scales are only for the use with SEN children and even then towards the end of Year 1.

 

Even the DfE do not advocate the use of P scales for SEN children on entry to Yr1.

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/assessment/a00203453/about-the-p-scales

"Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS)

If a child has special educational needs and their EYFS attainment against the EYFS profile has not been demonstrated at the end of this stage, the school may wish to continue with an early years curriculum to support the child’s learning and development. In this case, the EYFS profile, rather than P scales, should be used for assessment as it may be suitable in Year 1 for a small number of children.

If schools choose to assess children using P scales towards the end of Year 1, teachers should base such judgements on a review of evidence gathered from everyday teaching and learning. Professional judgement should be used to decide which P scale description best fits a child’s performance.

 

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/assessment/eyfs/a00224219/eyfs-2013_2#faq5

Can we use P scales for children in the EYFS?

No. No assessments other than the outcome band judgements are required or expected for the EYFS Profile.

P scales are an assessment tool designed for use at Key Stage 1 and should not be used for assessing children in the EYFS. As stated in the EYFS Handbook, in instances where the child has not yet met what is expected at the end of the EYFS, their learning and development is said to be at an emerging level for that ELG.

The statutory requirement at the end of EYFS is to make an accurate judgement between the three outcome bands of the EYFS profile for each of the 17 ELGs and complete the learning characteristic narratives. See page 13 and 15 of the EYFS Handbook for more information.

 

When should P scales be used for a child in Year 1 rather than the profile for assessment?

There is no specific national guidance as to when it is more appropriate for a child to be assessed against the EYFS profile or the P scales once they have started in Year 1. Each case will be individual and should be considered according to the child’s strengths and/or areas for development and provision within the school. For some children it is appropriate for them to continue with the Profile for the autumn term.

 

The actual expectation is that Year 1 teachers understand what the EYFSP outcomes mean and use this information to inform their teaching. If they can't do that then maybe they shouldn't be in Year 1.

Edited September 7, 2013 by catma

[Guest]

I know all of this and have spent hours on the internet to prove that what she is asking me to do is wrong but it is not making any difference and she is still pushing for some sort of system!! It is such a horrible place to be in!!!

[catma]

Do you have any LA EYFS team you can talk to??

Cx

[Guest]

Yeh think I might have to!! I'm new to the role so have some training coming in the next few months so will see what they advise. Although my guess is that they too will agree it is ridiculous to expect us to do this!!

[Guest]

Makes me annoyed and sad!!!

[Scarlettangel]

I agree its ridiculous and sad BUT I expect there are lots of people out there having to do the same!

 

In our school this is a huge bone of contention every year!

I don't think there is a system it's just a lot of guesswork!

 

Whilst I don't agree with your Head I expect she is trying to meet OFSTED requirements re tracking progress etc!!!

 

I don't understand why we have the EYFS and then the NC which don't link together effectively! Both are statutory and both have been put together by the Government so if the government wants to see progression when their inspectors come in why not put other assessment tools into place???

 

Sorry that you are having to manage this! I hope you get some guidance from your EYA. Good luck!

[Rufus]

Can you not compromise....I have to do this in my school. Those that are working at national curriculum levels I put down as 1c or 1b etc (this year I even had a 2c mathematician!) however any child who is not yet working at level 1 I put down as 40-60 developing etc and then talk to year 1 about their next steps. We have to do this for maths, reading and writing.

[catma]

Whilst I don't agree with your Head I expect she is trying to meet OFSTED requirements re tracking progress etc!!!

 

I don't understand why we have the EYFS and then the NC which don't link together effectively! Both are statutory and both have been put together by the Government so if the government wants to see progression when their inspectors come in why not put other assessment tools into place???

 

 

There are no Ofsted requirements re making EYFS outcomes into NC outcomes though! I'd give a prize to anyone who can locate that in any documentation on the Ofsted website!

 

The revised NC will hopefully build on the EYFS curriculum but if they bring in statutory baselines this would probably be most HTs dream scenario.

 

Cx

[Guest]

Having the same predicament! Year 1 teachers want a starting point in order to show progress. Ofsted want to see a starting point so that progress can be tracked and because you can't track 40-60 months to NC my year 1 team want P scales. I've vented my disagreement and have had to put most Chl on them as they aren't a comfortable 1b or c or should I say we don't want to put them as that as this means they need to be a 2b or 2a when leaving year one to show good or outstanding progress and therefore puts massive pressure on year 1 team as its such a big transition. It's so hard. I understand schools point re tacking but can't seem to justify or find them an alternative. Think it's always the same everywhere!! Will watch this post in anticipation of 'the cure!'

[Lucie]

We use the EYFS assessment as they go into Y1 (obviously), then at the end of the first half term #(Oct) the Y1 teacher provides a level which is entered into the Tracker. This always has always been sufficient for OfSTED and our advisors.

[Guest]

It's the same every year. My Head isn't pleased that we can't compare this year's data to last year's, I am just waiting for the same discussion about converting the scores....

[catma]

Well I have to say all these Yr1 teachers and HTs need to 1) get over themselves and 2) learn how to do their job properly.

 

Are the children at age related expectations or not and how many do you have? It's that simple.

The EYFSP is a summative national assessment that tells you exactly that. If they continue to be at national expectations the next time you do a national summative assessment then you don't have a problem. Ofsted will not be worried.

Alternatively you just do what they want, wash your hands of it and go back to teaching your class as well as you can.

 

 

An uncharacteristically irritated Catma.X

Edited September 14, 2013 by catma

[Guest]

Thank you for all your help/advice everyone. Reassuring to know I am not the only one in this situation! Even if it is a rubbish one!!!! I will let you know what my LA advisor says!!

[Guest]

We are doing a baseline NC level for Year 1s based on the teacher's observations/knowledge of the children over the first few weeks.

[mackdebs]

The year one teacher and head at my school are busy giving all the year 1 children p levels as we speak, so that NC progress can be tracked as soon as possible. Why do we keep kidding ourselves? This is what head teachers want because we are all judged on progress. I have taught EYFS for years and it has always been the same.

[Guest]

The most recent Subsidiary Guidance from Ofsted, which was published on Friday has this to say:

'Progress measures from the end of reception (Early Learning Goals) to Key Stage 1
31. The early learning goals do not translate precisely to National Curriculum levels. However, as a broad rule of thumb children who reach a good level of development at the end of the Reception Year ought to be reaching at least Level 2b by end of Key Stage 1. Children exceeding the early learning goals at the end of reception ought to be exceeding Level 2b at the end of Key Stage 1 and be reaching Level 2a as a minimum, and more likely Level 3.'

Interesting that it refers to sub levels, when my understanding was that these have been done away with. Am I missing something? (My school has said we will continue to use them until 'the way ahead becomes clearer').

 

There is also a new document on the DfE website which looks like the replacement for Development Matters, called 'Early Years Outcomes'. Like DMs this is also non-statutory guidance however, so I would think that if you are happy with DMs then it is fine to continue to use them.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/early-years-outcomes

 

Hopefully these should lay some of the 'conversion' arguments to rest..........call me an optimist (or maybe just deluded).

[Guest tinkerbell]

Hi Tinky

I teach in a small school a class of R and half year1,myself and the other year1 teacher sit down each Autumn first half term ...say 4 weeks in and discuss each child and set the NC targets for the year.

You know the children and so you need to be in on the meeting that the yr1 and headteacher are having to make sure they have a good measure of each child.....if not this year bring it up at staff meeting/Lea eyfs meetings and make it happen for next year,after all we are required to pass on the characteristics of how the children learn information to the year1 teacher .

I like having this meeting 4 weeks in (myself and the teacher talk daily anyway and I am upto date on how my last brood are doing)because we really have an in depth discussion about each child.

keep strong

[catma]

 

'Progress measures from the end of reception (Early Learning Goals) to Key Stage 1

31. The early learning goals do not translate precisely to National Curriculum levels. However, as a broad rule of thumb children who reach a good level of development at the end of the Reception Year ought to be reaching at least Level 2b by end of Key Stage 1. Children exceeding the early learning goals at the end of reception ought to be exceeding Level 2b at the end of Key Stage 1 and be reaching Level 2a as a minimum, and more likely Level 3.'

What I said (#13).

But in more words. I note they have broken their own 20 words to a sentence quality mark plain English guideline!

 

Cx

Edited September 15, 2013 by catma

[Guest]

The most recent Subsidiary Guidance from Ofsted, which was published on Friday has this to say:

 

'Progress measures from the end of reception (Early Learning Goals) to Key Stage 1

31. The early learning goals do not translate precisely to National Curriculum levels. However, as a broad rule of thumb children who reach a good level of development at the end of the Reception Year ought to be reaching at least Level 2b by end of Key Stage 1. Children exceeding the early learning goals at the end of reception ought to be exceeding Level 2b at the end of Key Stage 1 and be reaching Level 2a as a minimum, and more likely Level 3.'

 

 

Hi,

 

Would you mind posting the link to where you found this?

 

I am having the exact same debate at the moment as year 1 teachers and HT want an on-entry level for year 1 based on the FSP.

 

As Catma said (you are a WEALTH of knowledge on this forum by the way Catma!) they do not match up and nor are they meant to. I can understand the frustration for year 1 teachers and heads however as it would be so much easier to track progress if there was some kind of conversion chart. It worries me that schools are making up their own conversion systems as there will be so many inconsistencies.

 

I think it needs to be clearer that there shouldn't be any conversion from FSP straight into a NC level. Somehow that message has not been received!

Edited October 22, 2013 by Invicta

[catma]

Here you are http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/subsidiary-guidance-supporting-inspection-of-maintained-schools-and-academies

 

Cx

[Guest]

Thanks Catma :-)

[Guest]

Thank you!