catma Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 (edited) OK guys, need some help here. am having frequent arguements with heads about baseline assessments in f1/f2 and what they can do. I resolutely stick to my guns and tell them they can assess against the stepping stones and then track through the FSCG, using the ss as a guideline but they all want NUMBERS!!!!! SO - the questions are - - do you use a commercial baseline system? If yes which one and do you think it is a) useful b ) accurate c) manageable d) what do you do with the data - do you use your own system? If yes same as above plus a) what do you base it on? (And pleeeeeease no P levels ) Thanks all Cx Edited March 16, 2006 by catma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Good luck Catma. I'm doing supply at the moment so not sure my response will be any help but when I had my own Reception class I assessed on entry against the FSP and then tracked progress. We concentrated on maths and literacy for school stats and it was quite onerous as we were expected to update half termly. We reported numerically re FSP scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Hi Catma, We've had similar 'discussions' at my school. What do your lot want to know exactly? What the children know on entry? How they're progressing? Data to use for target setting for SATS? At my school we had a go at transforming FSP scores into NC levels for target setting from Y1 onwards. But since in September a lot of Y1 are still working to FS guidance and ELGs we argued forcefully that it was nether fair nor appropriate to give these children NC levels or P scales until January. Also, what's the point of carrying out so much thorough assessment in F1 and F2 if it's then translated into a 'roughly this' measurement? The two measurements can't be spliced together that easily. So, for now, we're don't include Y1 in target setting procedures until January, when we'll use NFER assessments to level them. Then NFER again in July. Don't know yet how useful or accurate these tests are. I sympathise with your plight. It's so frustrating that many SMTs just don't get it. Anyway, hope this helps. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marion Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 In County Durham we use the county baseline scheme called Flying Start 2 (I know other counties bought this in also) It is easy to use and is broken down into manageble steps for the children to achieve and perhaps more importantly transfers directly to the FSprofile. In Durham this is collected by the county electronically in June/July and the information is processed. From this infomation we recieve a printout which details individual childrens areas of weakness and offers suggestions who may require extra support. Also produces the FSprofile for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 just been on e profile course, have to send entry FSP scores which will be our base line assessment. is this what you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) I like that idea Charlotte - feel like I could cope with that! I'm really glad Catma has raised this as it's something I've wondered about. I do the profile all on 1 sheet of A4 paper, highlighting when the children have achieved something, using the colours of the dots in the FSP. I had wondered if shading in, say, pink if a child has achieved something on entry would show that I was aware of entry levels and would show that I had moved them on. I had also toyed with typing out all the Stepping Stones and highlighting these (on entry), drawing on information given from playgroups/nurseries and my own assessment but feel really resentful about doing this so am resisting. In my mind I kind of think that the fact that I'm constantly looking at the profile and marking things off should be proof of progress: they couldn't do it when they came in, now they can = progress! Also, I seem to pick up lots of conflicting advice which is another reason why I've resisted typing out the Stepping Stones. I seem to remember somewhere (or perhaps it was wishful thinking ) reading/hearing that the Stepping Stones were indications of what children might do on the way to the ELGs (which aren't assessment points in themselves, are they?) and therefore shouldn't be used for assessment. If the FSP is what we've been given to assess pre-National Curriculum children, why should we have to have to invent something else? Perhaps that could be the pre-pre-National Curriculum assessment . I've confused myself now so there's no hope for the rest of you! I'll be very interested in how this thread continues Edited March 17, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 You'll have an impossible workload if you do that Moose! I think the profile is enough of a burden. I used yellow to indicate starting/ entry assessments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) cheers guys, keep 'em coming. What the heads of our schools want is to show progress which isn't unreasonable - what is is the extra pressure this puts on F1 and F2 to do additional stuff which they shouldn't by rights be doing because the profile is the STATUTORY assessment. But without a start point how can you show progress - and so it goes round. I worry about the profile being used any earlier than F2 and have reluctantly given in to hving this as a marker on entry to F2 but that still leaves the problem of attainment and progress in F1, for whom I will not condone the use of profile as it is an END of stage expectation. Am starting to win the battle on P levels though not in all schools. Anyway - does anyone use pips? want to know about that also. Cx PS put this in this forum cos it covers assessment but do want school based F1 comments too please. Edited March 17, 2006 by catma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 pps jmoore - well done on winning that battle. sounds eminently sensible to me!! And no P levels. What more could you want!! (I have an allergy to them) Cx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) Sorry Susan, I didn't explain myself very well. (I've just edited my post to try and make it clearer but still haven't managed it!) I meant just mark off the Stepping Stones when they came in. Then at the end of the year, if a particular child had a low score on the profile, I could 'justify' this by showing that they came in with a low starting point. I kind of think this would be 'useful' but my earlier comments stand about my doubting that the Stepping Stones are assessment points. What do you think? I'd really like to clarify this in my own mind and would appreciate help! Edited March 17, 2006 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 Moose that sounds kind of what I suggest my schools do - we have an LEA version of the ss broken down into the different aspects of each subject ie linking sounds and letters, writing, reading, handwriting and the S+L ones for CLL. Then they can track and see if aspects are weaker etc. Noones mentioned bought in schemes though yet - need info on them too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Ohh catma, one of my pet hates..all we have had all year is 'yes but how can you make this numerical..aggghh' . We do use the stepping stones broadly speaking although moose's point about not using them for assessment is a good one too. We highlight where the children are at 3 points of the year (different colour for each term)and as this is visual we felt this was adequate enough, but no, the LG wanted more. They have now, following some advice they liked from another school in our EAZ gone for a 'child working within yellow, blue or green ss'. How many in each (as a percentage) at the start of F1 year and how many at the end...therfore showing progress! WE added a further column for not enough evidence..basically for the children who either were very poor attenders or who hadnst stopped crying yet. They they went on to say they have done us a favour (!!!) by ONLY asking us to so this for CLL MD and PSED. Im afraid we are very much paying lip service to this as we all know that a child doing well in one aspect of say CLL may not in another and the notion of an 'average' is nonsense. But OFSTED seemed to like it in this other school so the head thinks its wise move. Im sure catma if you get the perfect answere, you should bottle it for sale..you'll make a fortune im not sure if that makes any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Hi Catma, any chance that you could post you LEA version of the Stepping Stones for me to have a look at? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 makes perfect sense - sounds pretty much like the system I made up to keep the Head happy in my performance management meetings a while back. I insisted I only do progress on children I would have for the period of the PM (like the rest of the school would) so that narrowed it down a bit (this was F1) and then did exactly that - % in yellow/blue/green for writing , reading and numbers as labels. kept her happy and wasn't too much extra work. Pupil progress target ticked off, HT happy and me - well, I got to do what I wanted for the rest of the time so I was happy too!!! Cx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catma Posted March 18, 2006 Author Share Posted March 18, 2006 Just seen post moose - don't have them on this pc but will do so asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marion Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Moose that sounds kind of what I suggest my schools do - we have an LEA version of the ss broken down into the different aspects of each subject ie linking sounds and letters, writing, reading, handwriting and the S+L ones for CLL. Then they can track and see if aspects are weaker etc. Noones mentioned bought in schemes though yet - need info on them too!!! 51093[/snapback] There was a discussion about the PIP assessment scheme I think but I cant find it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 i hope this may be one you wee referring to Moose pips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marion Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Cant get the link to work for me Mundia (my brain is still fluey so not fully functional) http://www.foundation-stage.info/forums/in...wtopic=3008&hl= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 yep thast the one Marion, dont know why my link didnt work, probabaly technical ineptitude... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 works fine for me, mundia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marion Posted March 19, 2006 Share Posted March 19, 2006 Works for me now (wonder what I did wrong earlier) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted March 20, 2006 Share Posted March 20, 2006 Would these stepping stones be of any use to anyone? Have all the other areas if so. Let me know. Deb Communication_language_and_literacy_assessment.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Would these stepping stones be of any use to anyone? Have all the other areas if so. Let me know. Deb 51324[/snapback] Hi Deb Thanks for those - I like them would be interested in seeing others if possible acb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 PSE_Development_Assessment.docPhysical_Development_assessment.docMaths_Assessment.docCommunication_language_and_literacy_assessment.docCreative_Development_assessment.docKnowledge__Understand_assessment.doclanguage__literacy_assessment.doc Hi These are the stepping stones, numbered, in each area up to and including green. Deb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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