Guest Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 (edited) Hello, this is my first ever message so I hope it works and I get some replies! I am a nursery nurse who works in a 39 place nursery class with a teacher and a level 2 teaching assistant. We are full and I understand that these ratios are fine in accordance with the EYFS. However I am taken out of nursery to cover PPA in our reception class one afternoon a week and cover for our own teacher's PPA time/meetings/courses etc. This leaves either me or the teacher and the TA2 in nursery. Is this right? We have a few young part time students, are they counted towards staff ratios? I am really confused! Edited March 30, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dottyp Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi rachelsigsworth welcome to the forum I work in a pre-school so unable to help with your post, but i'm sure you won't have to wait too long until someone comes along with an answer for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam2368 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 39! My goodness. I'd have thought it'd be 1:13 for the teacher, 1:8 for you and 1:8 for the TA2. This makes 29 not 39. this link clarifies it, i think - it's late and I'm tired! http://www.teachers.org.uk/resources/word/EYFS STAFFING REQ IN ENG... Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam2368 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 And i forgot to say welcome - I always forget that bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dublinbay Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 39! My goodness. I'd have thought it'd be 1:13 for the teacher, 1:8 for you and 1:8 for the TA2. This makes 29 not 39.this link clarifies it, i think - it's late and I'm tired! http://www.teachers.org.uk/resources/word/EYFS STAFFING REQ IN ENG... Sam Hi Rachelsigsworth and a warm welcome to the forum. Congratulations on making your first post.......the first of many I hope! Like Dottyp I am in pre-school but Sam's figures certainly look like they add up. I'm sure other's who know will be along soon who can maybe add more advice. Enjoy the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I don't think the ratios are supposed to be as previous posters have stated. My understanding (and I may be way off base here!!!!) is that maintained nurseries have ratios of 1:13. BUT This is a teacher and a nursery nurse (level 3) in nurseries of 26 places I would have thought in a school nursery with a class of 39 it would have meant 1 teacher and TWO level threes at all times. Our teacher has PPA cover and a level 4 HLTA covers that. Have probably added to the confusion here but the 1:8 ratios are for privately run settings. Will look forward to seeing other thoughts re this numbers situation!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I forgot to add that students under 18 cannot be counted in the numbers where I work!! Even older students often are supernumerary! So it seems to me at times that you are severely understaffed!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest budgie1 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi rachelsigsworth and welcome to the forum. In a maintained nursery class the ratio is 1:13. There must be a qualified teacher and at least one other member of staff must be qualified to level 3. You cannot include students into the ratio regardless of their age. So your staff levels seem fine, until you leave to cover ppa and then you are understaffed. This is clearly stated in the guidance book from the EYFS on pg 50. You should show this to your head to help support your argument. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplewednesday1 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi rachelsigsworth and welcome to the forum.In a maintained nursery class the ratio is 1:13. There must be a qualified teacher and at least one other member of staff must be qualified to level 3. You cannot include students into the ratio regardless of their age. So your staff levels seem fine, until you leave to cover ppa and then you are understaffed. This is clearly stated in the guidance book from the EYFS on pg 50. You should show this to your head to help support your argument. Good luck! Statutory guidance says that students who are 17 and over, are on long term placements and are deemed suitable by the responsible person can be counted in the ratios. I agree that students in numbers isn't best practice - but it is allowed pw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest budgie1 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks for that purplewednesday1. We always advise that students can not be counted but I did not realise that in some cases they can. Well, you learn something new every day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplewednesday1 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks for that purplewednesday1. We always advise that students can not be counted but I did not realise that in some cases they can. Well, you learn something new every day! Here's the reference! from EYFS statutory framework 2007 p32 'Staffing arrangements ...' Statutory guidance ... paragraph 5 "staff / volunteers / students ... under 17 cannot count ... Individuals aged 17 and over who are on long term placements may be included in the ratios if the provider is satisfied they are competent and responsible" So ... still not best practice!! but in dire emergencies (which, personally, I wouldn't count as planned PPA cover time). We would use students in the ratio if they fulfill the above criteria if something happened like ... staff member late for work / taken ill. Our operational plan uses only permanent staff. pw x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 A big thank you to everyone who replied to my query! I found the information re. staffing ratios in the EYFS (Appendix 2 p.49-52 if anyone needs it) and have passed this on to my nursery teacher. It does look like we are short staffed when I am covering in reception and when our nursery teacher is out. She is going to discuss it with our head teacher this week. Still not sure about our students being included though. Hopefully it will get sorted. I'll keep you posted! By the way we have no HLTA's in school to cover PPA. Either level 3 (or equivalent) TA's cover or we use coaches etc. with help from other TA's. It would be interesting to hear how other settings manage their PPA cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Hurray, our staffing problem is solved! Our nursery teacher took the notes re. staffing levels in the EYFS to show the head today. She agrees we need three members of staff in nursery at all times and I am not to cover for reception PPA anymore. This will be now covered by a coach with support from two other TA's. Our head was unaware of the information on staffing levels in the documentation. Suppose they can't read everything! Enjoy the Easter break everyone who has one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) Hurray, our staffing problem is solved! Our nursery teacher took the notes re. staffing levels in the EYFS to show the head today. She agrees we need three members of staff in nursery at all times and I am not to cover for reception PPA anymore. This will be now covered by a coach with support from two other TA's. Our head was unaware of the information on staffing levels in the documentation. Suppose they can't read everything! Enjoy the Easter break everyone who has one! Arrgh! On return to work after the Easter break they have come up with another arrangement..........Yes, we have a coach to take PPA in reception but the coach can only take one reception class at a time for 1 hr each with a level 2 TA to support. This leaves the other class inside with guess who .....ME! To cover me in nursery they have put in another floating (but someone who is usually based in reception) Level 3 who does not not know the children as well as I do and they might take her some weeks when needed to cover in school. They won't use her to cover PPA in reception as this would eat into the hours they could use her to cover in school. Is it just me or are we being short changed? Where is the continuity for the children? If they do take her to cover in school this would mean we wouldn't have a level 3 in nursery. Is this just bad practice that we have to put up with or is this going against EYFS legistlation/guidelines? Also we will be due for an OFSTED soon. I feel really down about it all. I love my job, the children and work colleagues but feel like we are the 'poor relations' at times. Can anyone suggest what to do? Edited April 25, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mundia Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 Hi Rachel, I do feel for you, I went this nightmare year after year in my previous life. I cant quite understand what difference it makes if the person who usually covers in reception can't do that? If she is covering then its the same whether that's in the nursery or in reception. It seems perfect sense to leave her in reception and leave you in nursery rather than swap you over. Can you go back and discuss this again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 (edited) Hi Rachel, I do feel for you, I went this nightmare year after year in my previous life. I cant quite understand what difference it makes if the person who usually covers in reception can't do that? If she is covering then its the same whether that's in the nursery or in reception. It seems perfect sense to leave her in reception and leave you in nursery rather than swap you over. Can you go back and discuss this again? Hi Mundia, Thanks for the reply. I think they feel they can swap us over as she would not be covering for a teacher in nursery like she does when covering in school. I am a nursery nurse. The way they see it it's a level 3 for a level 3. If she did the PPA cover in reception this would be for a teacher so would add to her covering hours. Edited April 25, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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