Ratios

[Masha]

Hi

 

Haven't posted on the forum much, but love reading it and thought I should make a contribution!

 

As far as the original question goes, I agree with 4 staff.

 

As for the 50% qualified, I always ensure that each session has a minimum of 50% qualified staff, and as we are a nursery with several rooms, I always ensure at least 1 level 3 and 50% qualified to level 2 in every room all the time. Having said that, at a previous Ofsted inspection I was told that because the ladies I employed to cover for 3 hours at lunchtime did not have qualifications, this meant that overall less than 50% of my staff were qualified, but the inspector thought it was a good thing that I employed lunch cover and so she would not 'mark us down' for it. At lunchtimes we still kept to the minimum of 1 level 3 and half of the rest of the staff in each room at level 2 but she counted up all staff, full and part time and worked from that!

 

Hope that makes some kind of sense! It's surprisingly hard to explain ratios without hand gestures and/or diagrams!

[Guest]

The points system is from my local early years team finance manager. He was adamant that that was how early years settings should be run and were not financially viable if they didn't abide by the system.

 

But we never actually kept to it and maintained higher ratio's as its impossible to provide a quality service without adequate staffing.

[Guest Janie4]

What you can do is count some of the over 3's in the under 3's ratio:-

 

4 under 3's - 1 member of staff

1 under 3 + 3 over 3's - 1 member of staff

8 over 3's - 1 member of staff

This still leaves 2 over 3's so clearly a fourth member of staff is needed.

 

 

 

 

I go with Beau - that's the way we calculate it!

 

Janie

Edited September 10, 2008 by Janie4

[Deb]

Ofsted were no help, when she rang they would not give a definitive answer!

 

 

If I had a pound for everytime someone has said recently that they had phoned Ofsted but they would not give a definitive answer, I'd be rich! What exactly is the helpline for? Answers on a postcard! If they don't know how are we supposed to?

 

It seems to be most people say the answer to the problem is 4 staff. I'm not suggesting this is wrong, but we work our ratio's like this and my answer would be 3 staff as a minimum ratio. However, I would like to know if this is incorrect. Must say the points system does seem very much simpler to understand.

 

1 under 3 = a quarter of 1 member of staff

 

so 13 over 3 would mean 1 member of staff plus 5 left over

 

then 5 under 3 would mean 1 member of staff plus 1 left over

 

a 2 year old is a quarter of 1 member of staff at 1:4, at 1:8 for 3 year olds (3/4 of a staff member is 6 x 3 year old children) - so 3 members of staff and space for 1 more 3 year old!

 

A colleague has another way of working it out - she counts each 2 year old as 2 children

 

therefore 5 2 year olds become 10, plus 13 3 year olds makes 23 children which equals 3 staff (24).

 

What an interesting topic!

Edited September 10, 2008 by Deb

[Guest]

Well, I thought 4 staff (working on 1:4 and 1:8 with no 'carry over' - mixed ages). BUT, The calculations which resulted in 3 staff are 'believable' too. :wacko: .

 

My recollection of the 'old' standards (I don't work with or know EYFS enough to comment on now) was that if full day care or preschool registered for more than 21 children per session the 'supervisor' had to be 'off' ratio, ie: not counted. (presumably to be free to do what Beth1 describes plus be free to speak to parents, etc). Is this a true memory , and more importantly, is this relevant now with EYFS?

 

As for 50% of staff qualified, I always worked this at each session, otherwise you could have 8 staff, 4 qualified, 4 not, and have all unqualified (apart from supervisor) attending at a session. (defeats the object of employing qualified staff if you don't use them to meet 50% at each session, doesn't it?). That's if we follow the research that qualified = better practice. (I won't go nto what paper qualifications means to me except to say that you don't need a piece of paper to be qualifed, BUT a piece of paper 'apparently' proves you are- depends how you interpret the term 'qualified')

 

Masha's comments hint at how Ofsted calculated the 50%. (Hello Masha, a warm welcome to the forum )

 

 

What this thread has shown me is that maybe you do need at least GCSE in Maths (as CWDC promote) to run an early years setting, even if only to work out the ratio's.

 

 

Peggy

[Guest]

In reply to Peggy, when I went on SENCO training last term the Foundation Stage Adviser told us that our ratio's must always include someone who was free to talk to parents whenever they wanted. She was adamant that if we didn't have someone who could talk to parents without affecting ratio's then the setting would not be abiding by the EYFS regulations and therefore should not be operating.

 

However, how many committee run pre-school and smaller facilities would be able to afford to have a member of staff who was there for such a reason.

[Beau]

In reply to Peggy, when I went on SENCO training last term the Foundation Stage Adviser told us that our ratio's must always include someone who was free to talk to parents whenever they wanted. She was adamant that if we didn't have someone who could talk to parents without affecting ratio's then the setting would not be abiding by the EYFS regulations and therefore should not be operating.

 

However, how many committee run pre-school and smaller facilities would be able to afford to have a member of staff who was there for such a reason.

 

I think that is because the ratio's are the minimum number of staff who should be working directly with the children. If one member of staff is doing something else - talking to parents, taking a break, off preparing snack etc - then they are not working directly with the children and therefore cannot be counted in the ratio.

 

Unfortunately smaller groups have to think about how they can make this workable - for instance, a member of the committee could come in to cover for a short period of time so that ratio's are not compromised.

[Guest]

Thanks to every one who has added something about level 2's and 50% qualified each day or just overall.

 

I have phoned my Early Years Advisory Team today and guess what? They are going to come back to me as no one was sure!!!

 

I will let you all know what their response is.

 

Talking with you all has really helped me to beleive in what I am doing. THANKS FOLKS.

 

Ginge99

[HappyMaz]

Talking with you all has really helped me to beleive in what I am doing. THANKS FOLKS.

Reading the responses has made me green with envy, ginge99! If only I could manage to ensure that half my whole team was qualified to level 2, I'd be happy. Oh well: on with my development plan, I suppose!

 

Oh, and welcome to the Forum, Masha!

 

Maz

[Guest]

Hi all

Just like to say a big thanks to you all for expressing how you would do it! Inge actually posted this question on my behalf (thank you Inge!) and after reading her mail that she sent me with all your replies and how useful it really is I thought blow the cost (my LA does not pay!) and decided to register!

I can now look forward to reading all the things I was never allowed to . Could be here hours!

 

Update from me is that I also emailed OFSTED this question to get it in writing what they actually do. As yet I havent heard anything but will let you know.

 

I am a part time pre-school assistant (science grad but no childcare qualifications..except 2 kids ....but read alot on the internet about EYFS and come on forums like this...willing to train in NVQ but wont make that commitment yet due to committee ...long story!) in a sessional, morning village pre-school. The staff currently are supervisor (been there 1 year and came when pre-school failed OFSTED- she has brought it back up although there have been many staff changes), deputy (currently agency staff as they have not been able to recruit a suitable candidate since July), full time assisant (just started training in NVQ2) and me part-time assistant, 2 days per week or whenever they decide they really need me

 

Our new committee (since May) would not let me or the supervisor stay at the committee meeting to discuss staffing levels (supervisor stressed out and been asking for more staff ie 4 per day for last 6 months. I had told them that according to my calculations that the 2 days they should have me in are different to what they have got me in for...in fact they now say that they are reducing the staffing levels to 3 per day as over staffed which means the full time assistant loses 2 days). Instead they took the word of the admissions sec without even letting me tell them how I had worked the ratios out.

 

Fortunately 1 member has a son who is friends with mine and she heard what I had to say and looked at the info I had. She told me that the admissions sec adds that "left over" 2 yr old into the 3 yr old ratio but that it takes the place of 2x 3 yr olds. A bit like the points system then. My friend is secretary and passed it onto the chair saying that she agreed with me and that the committee should find out once and for all from OFSTED. The last thing I heard was admissions sec was going to call them. I had called them last week but they were very non-committal and just said the way I had worked it out was "about right"!!??? Although he did give the impression of not knowing what I was talking about. So have emailed them again. Need to find out soon as comm are deciding to do offer ad/hoc sessions so obviously this could have a huge impact.

 

I am also on temporary contract..they still hadnt issued me a new one until last night even though the other ran out 31 Aug. This one runs until 1 Dec (weird?) and they say they will give me 5 working days notice if my days have to change due to child numbers wether that is increase or decrease. This is not like my last contract (set days - different commitee) and means I have to be totally flexible! Not thinking about getting another job on the other days then!? Not sure about this so have yet to sign it.

 

And of course on top of all this there is the new EYFS and settling in those millions of under 3yrs that the comm have taken on!

 

Its all good fun.

 

Just lik to say thanks to the member that posted her form to work ratios out on (if we end up doing it like this!). Its brilliant and I have already started using it.

 

Hope to get to know you all soon.

[Smiles]

Working with a commitee can be stressful as they dont always have the knowledge of how to run a group. Ours changes every year and it takes a while to get used to the new one and each one has there own style and ideas for the setting

 

smiles

[fizzy]

I use the 24 point system. it was ofsted that advised me to use it

[hali]

can anyone point me to the direction of a website to validate this 'points system' so i can show our committee

[HappyMaz]

can anyone point me to the direction of a website to validate this 'points system' so i can show our committee

There speaks the voice of a researcher! No doubt Marion has a link, hali!

 

Maz

[Guest]

Hi

Well got a rply from OFSTED...they wanted to know the setting, address ref no etc. I thought it best at this moment not to go down that road? I asked if they could still tell me what they recommend...their answer is as follows:

 

"The ratio requirements of staff members to children can be located in the

 

Early Years Foundation Stage statutory framework, Appendix 2, which can be found at the following link:

 

 

 

EYFS Statutory Framework.

 

 

 

The ratio requirements and qualifications required would depend upon the age of the staff and the type of setting. Each variant is laid out in the requirements and you would need to ensure you follow each one depending on the children you are caring for."

 

Not really very helpful eh? Have read this and it says nothing about exactly how to work it out does it? Just states what the ratios are and what to do if you are in a school setting etc etc.

 

My supervisor is now saying that she will phone them herself next week to find out and will give them all the details they need.

 

Meanwhile supervisor tells me that an emergency meeting of the committee has been called...to discuss staff levels again...will let you know! Supervisor said that Chair told her they are considering reducing the staff down to 2 on one day as 4 under 3 and 8 over 3 yrs. They I think are being crafty as we also have a special needs assistant (grant-funded) in that day who is supposed to be one on one...I have such a suspicious mind!

 

The comm has called OFSTED so would love to know what they told them.

[Guest]

Hi Marley and welcome. Glad that we have all been of help and that you decided to join. You will never regret it (unless like me you read the post about books we've read recently and unfortunately it made me spend a lot of money in Amazon!!).

 

Anyway, glad the fom was useful too. Its a pity that staff can't be at the committee meeting to put their case. I think my response would therefore be a written one stating that for Health & Safety reasons you feel they are putting the children at an unacceptable level of risk by only having 2 staff for the 4 under 3's and 8 over 3's. What if, and it happens all the time in our setting, 2 under 3's need their nappies changing at the same time.... or one is sick and needs to be supervised on their own until someone can collect them. Heaven forbid if there is an accident and the parent is uncontactable and one of you have to go to hospital with the child....... Paint the picture as black as possible and ask for a written response to your letter and say that you and the supervisor are very willing to come and talk to the committee. Just thought back over our last 2 weeks, settling in some very upset under 3's, some with special needs too. I have had to overstaff considerably because I believe that is the right thing to do. Could you quote the Ofsted Inspection questtion of 'What is it like for a child here?'....... and point out the wide variation in responses that the different staffing levels would provoke?

 

Keep watching this thread because I know my friends here will come up with a much more coherent argument than me and know we are all right behind you 100%.

[Guest]

Hi LJW

Thanks for the welcome.

 

Further background info for you on our situation....

Last 2 comm meetings supervisor has been asking for 4 staff per day and each time the committee has said no due to finances.

 

So this last time (Mon this week) supervisor (with my help!) wrote an official letter stating all her concerns for child welfare etc and included the fact that many little ones need nappy changes, some are finding it difficult to settle (took 2 staff members on thurs!) and we also gave possinble scenarios. Guess what? Her letter has yet to be acknowledged! She has kept a copy of it and even in it said she would like a response and for it to be noted down about her concerns.

[Guest]

Great Minds Think Alike!

[Guest]

Just got an email (not sure it should have been sent to me!).....one comm member a secondary school teacher (as is my hubby) and she has advsied the comm to get OFSTED in to see them as it seems the committee has not got any info about this off the OFSTED website (been there done that!) or from calling them (that too!).

 

Its sooooo frustrating that no-one can seem to get a straight answer about what we should be doing from OFSTED. PLA told supervisor perhaps we should look at getting in 2 parent helps What a nightmare

[Guest]

Just got an email (not sure it should have been sent to me!).....one comm member a secondary school teacher (as is my hubby) and she has advsied the comm to get OFSTED in to see them as it seems the committee has not got any info about this off the OFSTED website (been there done that!) or from calling them (that too!).

 

Its sooooo frustrating that no-one can seem to get a straight answer about what we should be doing from OFSTED. PLA told supervisor perhaps we should look at getting in 2 parent helps What a nightmare

 

 

Not getting a straight answer from Ofsted, yes very frustrating.

 

Ratio's to enable the children to have their care needs as well as educational needs met are paramount.

 

Having a financially viable setting is paramount.

 

Parents are a good resource especially if they help keep a group from closing due to financial difficulties (in the short term, ie: the 'lean' Autumn term)

 

Just a few considerations, it's never black and white running a setting. Maybe suggest the committee get advice on finances, ways to make the setting more financially secure, if they really haven't got the money to increase staffing levels then this is where to start.

 

Peggy

[Guest]

Hi Peggy

Yes we have given the comm numbers of people to call about getting help financially (apparently our PLA is supposed to also help out with this).

 

Anyway for all of those following this thread I will copy and paste the answer from OFSTED the comm received (I have also been discussing this in another thread so just copied my reply from there)...

 

Well supervisor just called me about the results of the emergency meeting of comm last night.....

 

Nothing is going to be done about my contract (Tues/Thurs) until after half term as they will look at ratios again.

Supervisor asked her exactly what did OFSTED tell them as she needs to know.....Apparently they said..

" 1:4 ratio for under 3 yrs old and any surplus under 3yrs old MUST be maintained in a 1:4 ratio"

 

Whooooooo....it means we were right!!! Not that chair actually said we were right just said the above

Not that the comm are getting me in on a Wed which we have worked out if all children turn up they need 4 staff. Supervisor says today she is ok as looking at children that have actually turned up there are only 4 under 3yrs so covered with 3 staff but as she says cant work like that. PLlus the parent help hasnt turned up today.

 

The above also means that they now have to be careful about offering more under 3yrs places (we are having quite a few enquiries at the moment).

[Beau]

Supervisor asked her exactly what did OFSTED tell them as she needs to know.....Apparently they said..

" 1:4 ratio for under 3 yrs old and any surplus under 3yrs old MUST be maintained in a 1:4 ratio"

 

Whooooooo....it means we were right!!!

 

I think those who use the points system should also review their ratio's as it is clear from this reply that this method of calculating is not acceptable.

 

Many thanks for the info and I hope your problems are resolved to everyone's satisfaction soon.

[Guest]

What concerns me is that the points for ratio came from our counties Early Years team! Who can you rely one to give you the right advice? My moneys on OFSTED for this one.

[Guest]

Well its sorted....

chair has finally got me to change days to wed and thurs as these are the days 4 staff are definately needed !! The supevisor and i can now rest easy that they have taken on board what we have said and are now at least getting the staffing levels right (even if minimum!).

New PVI teacher was in today and gave supervisor some good ideas/support.

Just need to get a deputy sorted out! Closing date for applications was fri. The girl that is with us at the moment as cover has applied. She has fitted in well so it would be nice but you never know!

Fingers crossed that things get better from now on!

[Beau]

Sounds like good news then. Unfortunately there are always financial restraints that have to be considered but at least you are working within reasonably safe levels.

 

Just a reminder though that the ratio's laid down are guidance for minimum safe staffing but each setting needs to actually consider their own circumstances, as in many cases a higher number of adults may be needed if you have children with specific needs.

[Guest]

Also it now seems clear that the points system does not necessarily meet the minimum requirements.

[hali]

thats good news Marley

[Deb]

Thanks for highlighting this issue. Looking ahead to numbers for the Spring and Summer Terms at our staff meeting this week, the issue of ratios came up and I was able to share this discussion with colleagues. We have decided to seek clarification from our local SureStart advisor for the Welfare Requirements of the EYFS, in the meantime, maintaining the 1:4 ratio for under 3's.

[Guest]

Thanks for highlighting this issue. Looking ahead to numbers for the Spring and Summer Terms at our staff meeting this week, the issue of ratios came up and I was able to share this discussion with colleagues. We have decided to seek clarification from our local SureStart advisor for the Welfare Requirements of the EYFS, in the meantime, maintaining the 1:4 ratio for under 3's.

 

Let us know what they say!

[Deb]

Well I phoned our local SureStart advisor to give her a scenario relevant to my setting. Using the numbers calculation the answer would be 3 however.....

 

If we had 3 under 3's and 18 over 3's - how many staff would we need?

 

She said to imagine a box! Put the 3 under 3's in the box for one member of staff. She said we cannot put any over 3's into the box in this scenario because that would affect the 'space' available to the 3 under 2's.

Therefore the number of staff required would be 4 because the 18 over's would require 3 members of staff.

 

So I said, are you saying that if you have any under 3's eg 1 under 3, that no over 3's can be put in that box, she said in that scenario there would be 'some capacity' but where would you draw the line and we would need to explain to Ofsted how we came to this decision.

 

She emphasized that the 1:8 and 1:4 ratios were minimum requirements and settings need to take into consideration the setting layout, needs of children, taking children to the toilet etc.

 

It's still not as cut and dried as I would like!