Educational Sessions

[Guest]

hi,

 

I run a preschool who exepts the NEG, my problem is this,

 

we have some children who use their five funded sessions at the nearby nursery ( cos their more expensive) and then attend my setting for another 2 or 3 sessions per week and pay the normal fee charged to non funded children.

 

As they are 3 or 4 years old, should we still offer them an "educational session" as the funded children recieve, or the same type of session as the younger children?

 

tried ofsted, but their yet to get back to me, i knew i should have come to the forum first.

 

i hold a session on a wednesday afternoon for funded children who are to attend school in september only, should i also take the same age children who are not prepared to give us their funding.

 

If they are funded for 5 sessions elsewhere, do i still have to complete profiles and assessment records as with the funded.

 

One other problem is that the wed children are funded, and this is worth more than are fee's so we use the extra money to fund trips and outings for them on the wednesday afternoon. If a child is only paying the fee, which by the way is only £3.75 for 2 1/2 hours then it does not cover the expense of the trip.

 

Does anyone else have this problem?

How do you deal with it?

 

thanks

[Alison]

Hi Ruthie

 

We often have a mixture of 3&4 year olds some whose sessions are paid for by funding and a few who are recieving funding elswhere and attening our "cheap" sessions to fill up the week

 

we only registered last september I was told that we only have to offer the educational proviaion to the funded children because the none funded children are already recieving education elsewhere and like wise we dont need to complete their profiles

 

What we do during sessions is include all the 3 and 4 year olds in all the activities but we only observe and assess those who are funded

 

If the non funded children will be going to the same schools as the other children then why not included them in the afternoon session (if parents are happy to pay the fee?)

 

I would be causious of the children "overloading" with education and those that are having funded educational sessions elswhere should be allowed the "chill" alittle more than the funded children (if that makes sense?)

[Guest]

We treat all the children in our group the same, whether they are funded or not. Some of our children attend pre-school in the morning and then we transfer them to LEA nurseries in the afternoon.

I know their fees are not as much as those who are funded, but in our case not much less. I can not in all honesty treat any child differently. So, rightly or wrongly, they are all observed and assessed, they all take part in the same activities, they are all planned for. They, in my opinion, and it is just that, my opinion, deserve the same service.

Linda

[hali]

Hi

 

We as Linda do exactly the same...

[Alison]

I am not implying that we provide a better service for the funded children than the non funded chilren but a different level of structure.

 

during the sessions all children are encouraged to take part in the activities planned and the majority of children attending our group are not funded.

 

how much teaching do children need?

we encourage all children to join in but recognise that children can only absorb so much infomation at a time and if they are leaving playgroup at lunch time to attend a school nursery for the afternoon then we dont want them worn out and dispondent to learning. hence the different treatment of the funded children to the non funded

 

Observation and assessment - all children are observed its a natural aspect in caring for children but the formal requirement of foundation profile only applies to funded children. we have a record system inplace to record the attainment of all the children but we only complete the foundation profiles for the funded chilren I only have so many hours in the day!

 

our feeling is that all children are not the same. so we dont treat them the same. We need to be aware of their individual needs.

 

we question

is it the best interests of a child who spends every afternoon learning at nursery to be in such a structured environment all morning as well?

 

I think many educationalist would argue that children need relaxation as well as information and so if in a session there are children who attend nursery on an afternoon we encourage them to spend their mornings playing and enjoying their free social time if they want to join in and explore with their friends then they are welcome but we dont expect them to fulfill all the foundation stage curiculum with us as well as well as at nursery it is too much and can result in the children loosing interest in education at a very early age.

 

So in responce to the original question regarding funded children and non funded children I wouldnt advise that children need an eduactional session they need to relax

[Helen]

This topic is something that I had not thought about at all before, and it's really interesting. We don't differentiate between the funded and non-funded children because it hasn't occurred to us! But I see your point Alison, about the children getting overloaded with too much "stuff". We had a little boy who came to us for three mornings a week, and then went onto a state nursery for every afternoon. After a term of this, he was exhausted, he switched off, and his behaviour deteriorated whilst becoming really uncooperative. His mum suggested we reduce his sessions to two per week, and he's much improved. Perhaps it was a case of too much nursery?

[Guest]

Our sessions are very much play based with the children having free play for one and three quarter hours when they are free to take part in whatever they like. We have about 4 adult led activities going on but they don't have to be involved if they choose not to. We apply this across the board, whether the children are funded or not. There are obviously times when all children have a period when they would choose not to do something. That's fine by us. We may try a little gentle persuasion, but if they are adamant they don't want to do something then that's ok. Most of them want to take part in the activities.

I did not mean to impy that other settings are giving their none funded children a lesser service. I was stating what we do in our pre-school. I know that what we are providing and the way in which we are providing it covers the "educational" aspect, hence a good OFSTED report, and this all takes place in a very relaxed atmosphere. And, like Helen, it had never entered my head to work any differently.

Linda

[Guest]

thanks for all your replies,

 

i feel the main talking point to this to topic is overloading the children.

we do allow all age children to participate in the same activities, we just take the older children further on with them.

 

i really feel for some of these children, the little girl in my first post attend a nursery mon morning, my setting mon pm, nursery all day tue and wed morning, again to me wed pm and back to nursery all day thursday and friday and is not even 4 years old till next month. the poor thing must be exhusted.

she came to our setting 3 weeks ago, so she could get to know the children she would go to school with as her nursery is 20 miles away where her mum works.

 

we always offer all the children the opportunity to learn through play, i just think they must of had enough by the middle of the week, and will lose interest.

 

we to have noticed behaviour problems with children who attend many childcare providers, they dont seem to be able to understand the boundries of each setting, and why should they, their only 3 years old.

 

as a working mother myself, i do understand the need for mums to go back to work, but i have always managed my work around my childrens needs and not the other way round.

 

Again, thanks for your replies, i will think about how i am going to go about this topic in the future.

[Alison]

Hi all

 

Ive been watching the children in our setting as we have often have "mixed setting" children and how they have settled in school.

 

Im finding more and more resons to recomend to parents not to send their children to two settings. Its interesting to hear that I wasnt alone in my observations

[Beau]

I find the number of parents wanting to send their 3/4year old into some kind of full time childcare setting worrying. These children should be spending time with their parents. I really feel sorry for people who have no choice for financial reasons, but so many parents nowadays return to full time work because they want to do this in preference to spending time with their children. Why have the children in the first place?

 

The other thing I've come across a lot is parents who want their child to attend full days because they will be going to school full time after the summer and need to get used to it. Surely they'll get used to it better if it happens when they actually start school rather than forcing them to do it at a younger age?

 

Sorry! This is a sore point with me!! <_<

[Guest]

hi all,

 

i agree with you, parents do see it as getting ready to attend school, the problem with are school (dont know about other areas) it now only takes a september intake, and those children who are born after 31st Feb, only do part time till 12.00 for the first term, this means when they do get to school, they are doing less time than they did with us at the playgroup.

 

last year we offered those children the afternoons sessions at the playgroup as childcare, even collecting them from school, worked well, but again it was so upseting when i collected them, 2 of them on their first day at school and had to be collected by me and not a parent. Surely you would want to meet your child after their first day at school, it was very hard.

 

we try to work in partnership with parents, but to many of them cant wait to just get them in the door and go, and have no interest in what they will be doing or have done that day.

 

to me, this is the sadest part of the job.

 

Lets gives these poor kids a break, it is said that the parent is the main educator of the child, in some cases, i really wonder if thats true.

 

We have one child in the setting who spends more time with me and the staff than his own parents.

[bubblejack]

Yes I too feel like you Beau and Ruthie. I was a "hands on Mum" and am now a "hands on Grandma"Who in their right mind would have been outside yesterday planting pansies and having water fights with their grandchildren?

It is hard not to judge others isn't it but I do have a wonderful sense of satisfaction in the way I brought my own 2 children up rewarding them with a walk in the park not with material goods. Many of todays parents will not have this.

I do feel that if a parent can't have their child at home with them then that child is better off with someone who enjoys having them and can show them different experiences in life that they may not get. Some parents honestly do not realise that children are so easily satisfied

Just reward yourselves that you are influencing that childs future thinking.

[Guest rhodessj]

Like Linda, our setting works on the principal of learn through play and most of our session is unstructured and child-led. We too have adults working with activities, but the children are not forced to take part (mostly - sometimes the staff get over zealous about children performing a particular task!). We don't have the situation where our children share settings very often because we are set in a fairly remote location; but it still happens.

 

Although the requirement is only to keep development records on children in receipt of NEG; we find that it is easier to observe and keep development records on all children from the day they start with us. Trying to remember how well a child might have settled in when they've been with you for months before eligibilty is difficult to say the least, and I think being assigned a keyworker is part of the settling-in process in itself - if a child has no assigned keyworker it can be easy to forget the child's needs when planning, as no particular person will have assessed their capabilities/needs. I realise this particular point is more of a "staffing" issue - some staff will be sensitive about ALL children, and some will not.

 

Anyway, no solution for you and your quandry really; just backup of keeping records on all and keeping the formal learning thing subtle.

 

Sandra

[hali]

Hi

 

at the end of the day it dos'nt matter weather we have a child in our care one day per week or 5 days per week. We need to know what that child knows or dos'nt know and how to progess them - funded or not funded.

 

thats the view of me and my staff anyhow.