Ratios Again

[Guest]

hi, just a quick question

 

i understand all the ratio debate, i would like your views on having too many staff for the amounts of children

 

my setting wants to have 4 staff working with an average of 12 children (average 4 under 3 and 8 over 3) so would only really need 2 staff.

 

because they are going to employe a new staff and want to be able to give her sessions, and current staff wont drop sessions for a new staff to come in ( which i totally agree with)

 

i always though that it was more detrimental to child development for their to be this higher amount of adults to children.

 

we are currently working on 4 staff with 24 children, so i dont understand why the "committee" (yes afraid so) would up staff like this just to get this new staff to take the position. the remaining staff are still unsure that they wont lose their hours, and to be honest, i think they will if this new person takes on the job.

 

so, your views please, do you think a playgroup can be overstaffed? not to mention the cost.

 

thanks, ruthie

[nicki-k]

To my knowledge if you wanted to reduce hours below contract hours you have to give the member of staff 12 weeks notice and in effect the extra hours become redundant. You cannot therefore employ someone else to work those hours because this would make the 'redundancy' illegal. Does that make sense? (I am not an employment expert so I may be wrong!)

 

Personally I don't think being overstaffed is detrimental to childrens development all the time the staff aren't trying to 'direct' their play. However, the financial implications are a big factor. Even on the minimum wage you would struggle to pay wages and overheads based on the scenario you have given I would have thought.

 

Why do the committee want to employ another member of staff?

[Running Bunny]

I don't think too many staff would be detrimental, but would ensure that there were key worker groups, so that the children had the opportunity to spend time with their key group at certain times.

 

Like Nicki, I would be more concerned about the financial viability of this - even using lowest staff costs and reasonable fees, I could not see a profit being made. I think that someone needs to do a cashflow to see how this will affect the setting.

[hali]

A agree with the above, staff have to be informed and given notice about reduced hours. If they are happy about this and a vnew staff member appointed i ndo not think this is detremental to the children and aslo gives you back up staff to call in if staff are off sick.

[Guest]

I agree with what everyone else has said - high adult staff ratios are I believe beneficial as long as the staff are not on the children's case the whole time, think of all the things you could get done during the session rather than taking it home. However, would be really interested to see just how they are managing the finances.

Nikki

[Guest]

Hi Ruthie, I agree with others comments for consideration. I assume it will be 4-12 because numbers drop in September, However numbers wil rise over the year ie: yours currently being 4-24.

 

One other thing the employers will need to consider is that 50% of staff MUST be qualified, at every session, how would the new person fit with this, is he/she qualified? If not then this would or may affect this percentage requirement.

 

I think it is useful to have the supervisor / manager non ratio, and so extra staffing levels can help this. This is useful for when visitors need 1-1 with the supervisor, thus the staff with children are still within ratio. It is also useful to enable non-contact time for staff to do paperwork AT work.

 

 

On the longer term, I apologise for this but have been working on training and Qualification Policy this afternoon, in the future all staff will need to be qualified, this has immense cost implications, unless you can employ qualified as vacancies arise, there will be costs to enable current staff to complete qualifications within certain time scales.

 

Peggy

 

p.s. have a look at my post entitled Training Policy, I'd appreciate some feedback.

[Guest]

thanks all,

 

peggy, you hit the nail on the head, its because we had a level 3 leave and they want to replace her as it only leaves 2 level 3 qualified staff (no level 2's) who do not want to work every session.

 

they all pick and chose, dont want every session, dont want afternoons etc, so i guess they only have themselves to blame when someone does want the sessions.

 

as for finacial, this is what has made me so mad. i am working on 4 staff to 24 as i have to work on minimum ratios because of money, as someone new is taking over as leader (friends with chairperson - but thats another post altogether!!) it seems that all my cut backs will allow for extra staff next term.

 

oh well, thanks for comments

 

ruthie

[Guest]

It is such strange professional etiquette in the early years, I think especially preschools who's history started as mum volunteers. It is taking us decades to reach a professional attitude to a professional job from emplyee's and sometimes employers alike.

 

It seems that instead of the emplyees benefiting from having an employer ( they've got a job!!), in this scenario the attitude from the employees is that the employers are lucky to have employees and the onus is for the employer to fit around the employee.

 

My contracts don't state actual attendence days / sessions, my employee contracts are that they are employed at any time during preschool open hours, from 16 up to 35 hrs per week, shifts are at the discretion of the manager. ( they do tend to fall into work/life balance regular shifts but the contract is my backup to ensure I meet my ratio obligations under the ofsted standards)

 

My legal obligations come before the employees choice of what day they do their shopping on ( sorry, that was a bit harsh ) The only exception is if an employee has 2 jobs.

 

Peggy

[Guest]

At my pre-school I work, the 'room supervisor' (seems silly when I am the manager, counted in ratios and always in the room, but there you go..) has another job and as much as I understand this, it annoys me when she won't attend training days, meetings, or be flexible if other staff members phone in sick. She doesn't work every day she claims (I know her other manager ) and I sometimes feel she is taking liberties. As with Peggy's staff contracts, ours state that employees will be required to work any hour/shifts during pre-school hours of opening, at the discretion of the manager.

 

I must admit though, when I initially qualified, I was having some issues at the nursery I was in and my attitude was that they were lucky to have a competent, qualified member of staff and instead of giving me a hard time, they should be more willing to accomodate me. I was having difficulties with Natalie as she was quite unwell at the time. Plus there were only 2 qualified staff, one with L2 and the manager with L3.

 

Obviously I don't feel like that now!

Edited July 7, 2006 by Clare