Where Are Your Children Now?

[Guest]

Hi - I still need somebody to explain, very simply, the latest thinking behind the 6 = good thing for the FSP. Does this mean:

 

1) 6 is where you would expect the average child to be

2) 6 is where you would expect a child to be who is better than average. Therefore an 'average' child would be scoring about 4 or 5

 

I'm also still interested in knowing what baselines people do, who MADE you do them and how you record them.

 

Thanks!

[Guest]

I got the impression 6 was where you expect your average child to be?! We do PIP'S baseline we are not made to do it but our LEA recommends we do for the next couple of years. We do it just to get an idea of where children are when they come to us.

[Guest]

Hi Moose

I think the scores depend on your LEA. In Surrey 6 to 7 is average, as I understand it. (Unless anyone from Surrey knows differently?)

In terms of baselines, we were told by our Early Years Advisor to get an "on entry" level for the children. This is mainly for the SEF so we can show the progress the children have made (value added?). We only really worry about PSED, CLL and MD and as far as possible use the transfer data from preschool settings.

[Guest]

If 6 is now average this doesn't leave much difference between scoring 6 and 7/8 does it when the Standards Site is saying that scoring 8 would be like scoring 100% on a standardised test. Have we really now got to the stage when a single criteria distinguishes between average and good? It worries me because I am now trying to fight the feeling of needing to 'bump up' my 'middlies' to 6 to fit in with the latest 'findings' that 6 is average.

 

Hi ASPK - so do you just mark them off against the points on the profile if they can do something (if you do, how do you do this?) or do you have a separate format?

[Marion]

Dont know if this will help its a summary of the National averages at the end on 2005.

FSP.rtf

Edited April 18, 2006 by Marion

[Marion]

I have also found copies of my school and my Lea scores if these would be any help?

[Guest]

A score of 6 points across all scales is good progress - could be points 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 - not necessarily pt 1-6 (as FSP not hierarchical).

 

We baseline using CLL, MD and PSED in the first 3 weeks of term and enter that data on the e profile as "on entry". We can then put progress data in as "Autumn A" at half term. Moose - use the charts to look at "Progress in Components". Look at ups and downs - our PSED scores are always high on entry because of our Nursery provision and our LSL scores are often low as we don't do "scary" phonics in Nursery. It is not anything revolutionary - just look at your scores and think why is this so? Can do the same at any point during the year.

 

Moderation changes every year and is different in every LEA - so it is difficult to compare. Getting the judgements right is the most important thing whatever your LEAs procedures.

[Guest]

Hi - I still need somebody to explain, very simply, the latest thinking behind the 6 = good thing for the FSP. Does this mean:

 

1) 6 is where you would expect the average child to be

2) 6 is where you would expect a child to be who is better than average. Therefore an 'average' child would be scoring about 4 or 5

 

I'm also still interested in knowing what baselines people do, who MADE you do them and how you record them.

 

Thanks!

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No one made us do baseline - we found it useful!!!

 

There does not appear to be an average published score as yet - just use the national data - nothing is that reliable as yet.

[Marion]

No one made us do baseline - we found it useful!!!

 

There does not appear to be an average published score as yet - just use the national data - nothing is that reliable as yet.

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Our LEA provides every school with a school summary, a LEA summary and the National data. I assumed other LEA's would do the same as they all recieve the infomation.

[Guest]

Hi Moose

I think the scores depend on your LEA. In Surrey 6 to 7 is average, as I understand it. (Unless anyone from Surrey knows differently?)

In terms of baselines, we were told by our Early Years Advisor to get an "on entry" level for the children. This is mainly for the SEF so we can show the progress the children have made (value added?). We only really worry about PSED, CLL and MD and as far as possible use the transfer data from preschool settings.

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yes 6-7 seems to be the surrey average last year.

as regards baseline - we take the profile scores of children coming from the school nursery, plus any profile scores which we get from other settings. however this can be variable in format & accuracy - we are on the edge of 3 LEA areas each with their own format, so we tend to also focus on PSED, CLL, & MD. of the non school Nursery children.

 

as regards what is average this is as long as a piece of string. i vaguely remember in the long distant past taht when the FS curriculum first came out that the 'average child' should be achieving 8 points at the end of year R!

however this is a long vauge memory!

certainly last year in CLL in say reading 77% of children got 6+ points

and calculating 75%

[Guest]

Thanks Marion - I would like to look at your school v. LEA scores.

 

Do people really think that most children in their class should be achieving sixes? ( I would say that 'average' and 'most' are interchangeable). When did this become the case when only a short time ago people were quoting Lesley Staggs as saying that 4/5 was a typical level of achievement: see Angela J's post (no. 6) here or Catma's post (no. 11) here. . Has the Standards Site interpretation of FSP scores (here) become obsolete and if it has when will they update it?

 

I'm sure that it doesn't happen with any of you but I know that it has happened in my area that some people have marked off the profile points as being achieved when they really haven't been - see my earlier incoherent ramblings (post no. 7) in this topic. This would bump up national scores wouldn't it (?) and mean that we were all looking at our average child as NEEDING to be scoring 6 rather than honestly, hand-on-heart, saying they could do these things: I am having a real fight with myself not to do this as my scores against my County average were low last year and I can't see things being any different this year.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult - honest - but I have the kind of brain that likes things to be cut and dried! I also have this real thing about there being a big difference between a child being able to DO the ELGs because we offer them all the stuff, support their language and actions etc and really having ownership of the concepts i.e. the learning being deeply embedded and automatically being part of how they think and react to things which is what I interpret the FSP as being about.

 

I would be happy to mark off all of my children as 6/7/8 if it's just about them having experienced the ELGs but in my mind, I can't marry the ELGs and the profile that easily.

 

I did spend 2 years, prior to my current place in Reception, teaching Y2 and pouring over the Level Descriptors/SATs marking so perhaps that's my problem!

 

Sorry for being so difficult and for everyone who attempts, so patiently, to sort me out!

Edited April 18, 2006 by Guest

[Guest tinkerbell]

Moose

This is my problem too...I taught reception/yr1 and then yr2/yr1 and now r/yr1 and the goal posts do change.As i mentioned before an avarage yr2 used to be 2C now its 2B.

Stop worrying you are obviously doing your best because you are so concerned......I have just spent the last hour updating my e-profile and frankly there was not a lot i could do because 7,8 and 9 are so demanding ...the problem is the children skip along in the autumn term hitting the points then they appear to have done nothing this last term!! Some one needs to sort out 6,7,8 and 9 link them to the NC and then the e-profile can go into year1 and be a working document for the next teacher.....incidentally my top was 99 my bottom 43 (SEN child)

Tinkerbellx

[Guest]

Thanks Tinkerbell but I've currently got one of 'middlies' on 43 because I'm working from the average being 4/5 x 13. My really low ones (not formally given SEN status yet - don't ask!) are in the 20s!

[Guest tinkerbell]

Moose

I am sure you are doing ok, my 16 reception come into school quite high on the scores because we are a small village school, they do come from 8 different settings but 7 came from the local lea nursey attached to a bigger school...the teacher there thinks its great that she teaches them the alphabet and counting to 100..and they all produce an identical picture....She must not look at pshce because they cant take turns,share etc.....I beat my head against a wall...So now we have really slowed down as I said as far as the e-profile goes.

Tinkerbellx

[Guest]

Don't worry Moose. Some of mine are too, although most of my lower abilities are in the 30s because they are scoring quite well on PSED and KUW/PD/CD.

 

What most of mine are really down on is MD and CLL (same story).

 

I'm starting to really feel the pressure though, as my school are expecting this year's results to suddenly increase cause they have onfidence in the teaching team in Reception

 

I'm not so sure though, and just hope some of the children who aren't progressing much have a really amazing term!! (There's a long way to go as many can't even write their name yet)!

[Marion]

We have made a big push on PSE and PD this year and our scores are well up in these areas compared to last year but like Kelly I have some children who still cant write their namr and 1 who doesnt even recognise his.

[Guest]

Hi ASPK - so do you just mark them off against the points on the profile if they can do something (if you do, how do you do this?) or do you have a separate format?

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Yes, I mark them off in red on the profile and I highlight them to show they are "on entry" data. (I use the class record document)

ClassRecordproforma.doc

[Marion]

FSP scale points for school /LEA

FSP_school_LEA.rtf

[Guest]

Do you still fill in the booklets or do you just submit data from flying start 2 for FSP?

[Marion]

I dont use the booklets at all now.

[Guest]

realise i am probably being very thick - but what is flying start 2?

[Guest]

I'm starting to really feel the pressure though, as my school are expecting this year's results to suddenly increase cause they have onfidence in the teaching team in Reception 

 

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Thanks Kelly . I know exactly what you mean. My Head keeps saying how he's really happy with Reception and has put good stuff in the SEF but this is only based on me telling him how Reception is meant to be based on the stuff I learn on here but then that's only my interpretation of the stuff I learn on here, isn't it . He's justified our 'low' FSP scores from last year (again in the SEF) by quoting the stuff from the Standards Site (which I waved under his nose) about 6 being a 'good' score and insinuating, basically, that we were right and that's why our scores are low against the County average because we, meaning me, are doing it right. What am I meant to go back and say to him now? Having huge, nausea-inducing panic attacks right now, partly due to going back to school tomorrow (is it only me that gets that?) but also because of huge self-doubts.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Guest

[Susan]

Moose, dont beat yourself up or make your self ill. You are doing a good job and you must relax and enjoy and do your job without overstressing about number crunching!

Each cohort of children is different and I think the statistics produced by the FSP show that the expectations on these little children are quite high. You can not score your children on the basis of the average either, go with your gut instincts and your observations, they are right!

Your interest in all this is a healthy one but do not allow it to cloud your judgements!

[Marion]

realise i am probably being very thick - but what is flying start 2?

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Flying Start 2 is the assessment scheme we use in Durham from 3 to the end of reception.

[Guest]

Flying Start 2 is the assessment scheme we use in Durham from 3 to the end of reception.

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Are there any examples of Flying Start 2 materials to evaluate? or a website with them on?

[Marion]

Are there any examples of Flying Start 2 materials to evaluate? or a website with them on?

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http://www.foundation-stage.info/forums/in...indpost&p=47570

[Guest]

Thanks Marion

[Guest flutter]

Hi Moose,

 

Sorry not been on the forum for a few days. Just about to post this reply and my screen froze and had to turn the computer off and start again!

 

No, I am not near Lewes. Am in east sussex near the north of the County, probably nearer to you.

 

We used to do baseline assessment but this was stopped when the Profile was brought in and we were told that it wasn't necessary to assess children so young when they came to reception class!!I asked if the new advisor would like me to reinstate it. (Note sarcasm!)

 

I contacted County Early Years Advisor recently about profile links to KS1 descriptors. She informed me that the Teaching and Learning Consultant for Literacy was going to map the different elements in the ELGs from scale 8 into the KS1 level descriptors. She is working with the Early Years Consultant on this during terms 5 and 6, so we may get more information in our area soon???? I am in e-mail contact so will let you know any news when I hear about it.

 

I can't give you scores at the mo as I have been out of the classroom for 6 weeks and not sure where children are.

 

This discussion has raised so many points relating to many differnt procedures round the country and I thought that the Profile was going to standardise things!!!! Silly me.

 

I have also been having self-doubts about the Profile scoring and also how the classroom and teaching is organised, as everyone does it so differently. No wonder teachers in the rest of the school don't understand FS. Now I'm not sure we do.

 

I have worked with this age group for many years and I do know what I am doing but why do others put so much pressure on us to justify what we do?

[Susan]

Flutter, some good points!!

This concerns me greatly too

 

"This discussion has raised so many points relating to many differnt procedures round the country and I thought that the Profile was going to standardise things!!!!"

[Guest]

Hi

I believe the score 6 is not in each subject - it is a score of 6 across all areas of learning ie 6 in each scale point. So we are looking at the whole child across all aspects. This is to support FS and settings supporting child in all aspects and not narrowly focussing on CLL/MD. We have targets for childrens attainment (have you seen the target setting for intensive support schools materials on PNS site 'Developing the foundations for curricular target setting in ISP schools' Ref: 1806-2005DOC-EN

It talks about the interrelated nature of all curric areas.

My understanding is from reading new 10 year strategy info/ Rose review/ early years foundation stage materials - is that we will have national targets for EY childrenwhen EYFS appears Although we do already have national PSE/CLL targets(PSA)

Not sure if this helps

LGM