Filling In Profiles, Ensuring Correct Child Initated/adult Led Ratio

[KST]

Hi all,

 

Just filling in the profiles for this half term and wanted to clarify something. I know that the assessment is supposed to be based on 80% child initiated and only 20% adult led. I only ever have 1 adult doing an adult led task the other 2 adults observing, modelling play etc so generally feel I have a good ratio of child initated to adult led observatins. I put all the observations into childrens learning stories and i cross reference each obs to the scale point it shows them meeting. I only highlight a given scale point when I have seen it initiated by the child.

 

However, looking at the scores, some of the childrens result don't match up to their abilty, for instance I have a child who can read books during adult led guided reading sessions but has never initiated reading independently, not even shown interest in a book during self chosen time, so currently hasn't scored reading scale point 1. Can i still give some of the scale points if I haven't seen it child initated? Another example is a child who I have seen count 20 objects during adult led activities on numerous occations but again, has never done it in his play???

 

Thanks

 

KST

[Guest]

Surely examples such as the ones you give would come under the "20% adult led" part of the observation ratio. My understanding of it was that only 20% of overall observations should come from adult led so if you see them meeting a scale point consistently in adult led but never see them meeting it elsewhere you can still give it to them, providing you aren't awarding more than 20% of scale points in this way.

 

The one such as counting to 20 I always think would be quite hard to meet during completely child led activities unless you have provided something specifically where this is required. I can't think of many types of play which would involve numbers to 20 or solving problems using numbers to 20 that a child would come up with themselves. Of course that particular scale point (9 isn't it?) involves a lot more than just counting to 20 so you'd probably find you couldn't award it anyway.

 

As for the reading one I always think that "shows an interest in books" one is a bit strange because every seems to think they have to see a child pick up a book during child initiated time to award it, whereas if you look at the examples in the handbook this isn't the case. Very rarely do the children in my class pick up a book. It's not that they aren't interested in them, it's just that there are many things a lot more fascinating in the classroom that they would rather do because they can't really read the books fluently yet. Personally I award that one on whether they enjoy things like shared reading, whether they are interested in making comments about the pictures in the book or the story being read, whether they can concentrate on sharing a book with an adult etc.

[KST]

Thank you. I agree, just wanted some reassurance I was doing it right! x

[Marion]

The examples you give of counting to 20 and showing an interest in books my children easily achieve in CI. the one I would struggle with is LSL knowing the sounds and names of letters...

[Guest]

Kariana - unfortunately you have got the wrong end of the EYFSP evidence stick. The 80/20 ratio refers to each Scale point individually; not the EYFSP as a whole.

[Guest]

sorry - 'evidence'

[Guest]

Kariana - unfortunately you have got the wrong end of the EYFSP evidence stick. The 80/20 ratio refers to each Scale point individually; not the EYFSP as a whole.

 

Hmm yes you are right, having just reread the handbook advice on this. However, in my opinion the handbooks description is a bit contradictory, in the same paragraph it says if you can't get evidence through CI then you can set up adult led in order to collect the evidence, then says that actually this can't be more than 20% of the evidence gained. Why admit that sometimes you might not be able to get the evidence from CI and then immediately re-emphasise the restriction to 20% from adult led?

 

I have children who would rarely or even never pick up a book or a pencil during CI time, no matter how many opportunities or how much I tapped into their interests, since they just don't like to bother (much as I don't like to bother doing crosswords in my leisure time - they just don't appeal, but if there was nothing else available to entertain me I would do one and get a certain amount of enjoyment from it). If I ask these children to though they would both read a book and write a sentence without any problems. If I insisted on seeing it say 5 times before I awarded the scale point to ensure consistency, 4 times of which would have to be during CI activities according to the ratio, they would permanently stay at 0!

 

I think the ratio is there to get people on the right track. It's important to get most evidence from child initiated activities, but when it comes to a couple of the scale points in things like LSL, writing or PSRN I think common sense should prevail.

[Marion]

Sorry I disagree with ocelot and the advice we were given was that some points are easier than others to assess from obs of CI behaviour while others may need to be assessed from AI activities.

[Susan]

And dont forget your professional judgement, your knowledge of the child etc. Not all this will be evidenced directly although it will be built up over time.

[KST]

Thanks for all your replies.

Yes I was thinking that professional judgement has to be taken into account which doesn't always been there will be evidence for that. Feel a lot more confident now.

Does anyone know what progress the 'average' child makes each half term or term (as in the number of scale points children are likely to get) or does it just depend on the child?

K x

[Marion]

Latest advice we have been given by my LA is that it is expected that many children won't make any (full scale points) progress in a term but will be progressing towards them (achieving aspects of different scale points but not full points)

[Guest tinkerbell]

I have had this argument /discussion with the advisors/moderators.

I believe that if I am doing a daily discrete phonics session with 3 different groups of children for example I knowwhat those children can do...so I will tick the box wether its child led or not....the children are reading Jelly and Bean books and they come to me to read,I ask them to come or they choose to come at a certain time I tick the box.

Like Marion naming the letters is one I find very hard to find CI and children sometimes don't achieve it.It goes back to the e-profile being a badly put together assessment tool.

 

Tinkerbell

[Guest]

I agree that a certain amount of professional judgement needs to be taken into account. I think there are some profile points that you need evidence for and others anyone would be able to see if the spent a day in your class. Some of the reading and writing points are like this. As Tinkerbell said, from doing focussed phonics in smaller groups you do get to know what children can do and whether it is independent or not. I think the important thing is that the assessments should be made in the spirit of the EYFS and therefore not through SATs style tests. I also think you need to be confident of what a child can do independently. Having opportunities for CI allows you to see this without setting up test like conditions working times.

[emmajess]

Apart from anything else, if you combine together all the different factors: number of scale points, number of children in a class, number of staff... I don't think it would be possible to get 80% CI evidence for each scale point, or even concrete, recorded evidence for each scale point... unless I really am making a terrible mess of the whole thing! Professional judgement is hugely significant.

[catma]

This is what I advise for what it's worth.

 

Whenever you are making scale point decision you are asking yourself this:

 

1) Is this a typical, independently owned behaviour/skill/piece of knowledge etc. ie If I say the child can do it then they'll carry on doing it when they've left me.

 

2) How do I know? If only when I've directed it then it's not securely independent is it! It has to be an owned skill to make it secure.

 

3) Are they pre ELGs so only in 1 - 3 or have they passed that threshold into the 4 - 8 to help me get the right picture of their attainment and match it to my professional knowledge of their development picture.

 

This is the reasoning for the 80% - it stops all that come here sit down and write a story so I can assess you nonsense that used to go on!

 

We have to know a child can actually do something based on our observations and knowledge of the child - not "they're likely to" or "I would imagine they could" because that is supposition. Evidence IS our knowledge of the child!! It's in the definition as given by QCDA. Would you bother writing down that a child can manage their own hygiene if that's what they do every day????? No. Could you describe to a moderator what their competency in this is and how you know and describe some typical events?? Yes!!!! i.e. evidence!

 

re the para in the handbook about AI tasks what it goes onto say is that you might do some AI activities to clarify your understanding of the child's abilities but this is still only in the 20% i.e. not a secure judgment. You might not be able to give a scale point but you could inform their next teacher about what they can do with support across all the scales to inform next steps which is a primary function of EYFSP.

 

There is no such thing as average scale points progress as points above 4 are not hierarchical and anyway they all cover different skills etc. Children don't develop skills in an evenly progressive way and EYFSP reflects this. They are not sub levels or levels. It's different to Primary assessments.

 

It may not be perfect but it's a lot better than other things I've had to do in the past that bore no relevance to young children/effective practice whatsoever!!!!

 

Cx

[Marion]

This is what I advise for what it's worth.

 

Whenever you are making scale point decision you are asking yourself this:

 

1) Is this a typical, independently owned behaviour/skill/piece of knowledge etc. ie If I say the child can do it then they'll carry on doing it when they've left me.

 

2) How do I know? If only when I've directed it then it's not securely independent is it! It has to be an owned skill to make it secure.

 

3) Are they pre ELGs so only in 1 - 3 or have they passed that threshold into the 4 - 8 to help me get the right picture of their attainment and match it to my professional knowledge of their development picture.

 

 

 

We have to know a child can actually do something based on our observations and knowledge of the child - not "they're likely to" or "I would imagine they could" because that is supposition. Evidence IS our knowledge of the child!! It's in the definition as given by QCDA. Would you bother writing down that a child can manage their own hygiene if that's what they do every day????? No. Could you describe to a moderator what their competency in this is and how you know and describe some typical events?? Yes!!!! i.e. evidence!

 

 

Cx

 

My difficulty with what you are saying is that I know my children can do x, y and z independently from observing them in adult initiated activities but know they won't actually demonstrate those skills or knowledge unless I provide the opportunity.

In national training last year we were told this was fine as the children could do it independently and were regularly demonstrating this.

 

There is no such thing as average scale points progress as points above 4 are not hierarchical and anyway they all cover different skills etc. Children don't develop skills in an evenly progressive way and EYFSP reflects this. They are not sub levels or levels. It's different to Primary assessments.

 

I know a number of LAs are stating 2 scale points per term (as if FSP scale points are sub levels)

There seems to be a movement to link to APP

[Guest]

My difficulty with what you are saying is that I know my children can do x, y and z independently from observing them in adult initiated activities but know they won't actually demonstrate those skills or knowledge unless I provide the opportunity.

 

This is exactly what I believe as well. I am in year one but use the profile nearly as much as a reception teacher because the majority of the children are still working within the early learning goals and about six children are still below them altogether in PSRN and CLLD. I have children who I still assess using the profiles because of their mathematical development and reading comprehension who listen to my year one input about say writing a story and who will then go off and produce three or four beautifully written, phonetically plausible sentences completely independently because I've told them they must. These are children who during their CI time won't even pick up a pencil or attempt to read anything. They believe it's 'hard work' and can't be bothered and aren't interested no matter how carefully I disguise it was fun. This is an unfortunate combination of their deprived backgrounds and the fact that the school was way behind in getting continuous provision and FS ethos off the ground (they only started putting it in place Christmas of these children's reception year). Should I not award the scale points (and therefore never move them to APP) just because I never see evidence during CI time? To me that seems completely ridiculous when I know full well they can write almost at a 1C level! The new reception teacher does the same with her class as well.

[catma]

I know a number of LAs are stating 2 scale points per term (as if FSP scale points are sub levels)

There seems to be a movement to link to APP

 

This is completely against all the info from QCDA leads that I have received/discussed with them but what can I say - some LAs are telling people the wrong thing?????? What's your take on doing this?

 

Cx

[Guest]

Again sound words from catma and we need to stand up to LAs who ask this or who tell it as if it is true! Are the PNS consultants or EY consultants?

 

I remember reading the back of the TES a couple of weeks ago and Mike kent was saying how we as a profession don't stand up for ourselves I think this is a real case of a time when you have to say NO!

 

Emilia

[Marion]

This is completely against all the info from QCDA leads that I have received/discussed with them but what can I say - some LAs are telling people the wrong thing?????? What's your take on doing this?

 

Cx

 

I printed off the advice from the NAHT ( Jan Dubiel had provided his usual sound guidance) and gave it to my head who presented it to our SIP when she asked for the EYFS profile predictions

[Guest]

I printed off the advice from the NAHT ( Jan Dubiel had provided his usual sound guidance) and gave it to my head who presented it to our SIP when she asked for the EYFS profile predictions

 

Whereabouts is this advice? I can't seem to find it on the site. Thinking it might be good for our reception teacher so she can stick up for herself regarding this as well!

[Marion]

It is password protected so only members of the NAHT can access it now although it was originally freely available.

I have a copy but obviously can't post it here since it was removed from public domain.

[Guest]

This is what I advise for what it's worth.

 

We have to know a child can actually do something based on our observations and knowledge of the child - not "they're likely to" or "I would imagine they could" because that is supposition. Evidence IS our knowledge of the child!! It's in the definition as given by QCDA. Would you bother writing down that a child can manage their own hygiene if that's what they do every day????? No. Could you describe to a moderator what their competency in this is and how you know and describe some typical events?? Yes!!!! i.e. evidence!

 

Cx

 

I have an issue with this because I agree with the above statement re if you know they can and can describe events where this happens etc then you can 'award' the scale point, but this becomes an issue when you go to moderation meetings or have a moderator come to your school and they say you don't have enough evidence for a point when they look in the chn's files!

[catma]

The role of the moderator is to match your evidence in whatever form it exists and to make a judgment on your accuracy of awarding the discussed scale points based on the principles of the EYFSP. This cannot be done solely on looking in files - it must be based on professional dialogue. If a moderator thinks that you do not have enough evidence of a child using the skills in different contexts for example, they may well disagree with the award of the point but will be able to tell you exactly why they disagree, which you should have in some form of report. Moderators look at many children across their LA and nationally, so do have a reasonably good knowledge of the standards of evidence that are expected to evidence comprehensively across a scale point!

If a moderator does not agree with you and you think they are wrong you will have an LA appeal procedure which you are entitled to follow which should be shared with your school/setting.

 

Often in my experience I disagree re scale points because a practitioner cannot give me the evidence of a child using skills in different contexts or misses out whole aspects e.g. dance and music in creative or bases judgments too much on "tasks".

 

Cx

[Guest]

The role of the moderator is to match your evidence in whatever form it exists and to make a judgment on your accuracy of awarding the discussed scale points based on the principles of the EYFSP. This cannot be done solely on looking in files - it must be based on professional dialogue. If a moderator thinks that you do not have enough evidence of a child using the skills in different contexts for example, they may well disagree with the award of the point but will be able to tell you exactly why they disagree, which you should have in some form of report. Moderators look at many children across their LA and nationally, so do have a reasonably good knowledge of the standards of evidence that are expected to evidence comprehensively across a scale point!

If a moderator does not agree with you and you think they are wrong you will have an LA appeal procedure which you are entitled to follow which should be shared with your school/setting.

 

Often in my experience I disagree re scale points because a practitioner cannot give me the evidence of a child using skills in different contexts or misses out whole aspects e.g. dance and music in creative or bases judgments too much on "tasks".

 

Cx

I have so enjoyed reading the comments about the EYFS scale points having spent today updating my children progress on the new? eprofile version 3.1 ( lots more lovely pictures to be had for my head to look at) I now have a list of things for each child that I am uncertain of - so will return to observations and evidence to see if these can be achieved. Some like the LSL 4,5,6, are at first AL but I'm sorry to say that if I had children who didn't ever pick up a pencil or a book except when directed by an Adult I would be seriously worried. I try to create challenges so the direct teaching of a skill comes first and then the child takes that learning on and uses it independently - it might be creating parking tickets in the OLE or even writing perscriptions for the field hospital or route directions in each case the children are working independently - as for counting - a child yesterday brought me a bucket filled with pieces of Ice he had recovered from the tyres outside - wow said I there's a lot in there another child said how many? , the first child tipped them out and counted them!! 28 scal point 7 &8 achieved independently!! I then asked what they thought might happen if we brought the bucket into the classroom - would the Ice still be there today? so we decided that the best thing to do was to bring the bucket in and see what happens - unfortunately school closed today so will have to repeat this problem solving on our return to school.

 

its about being dare I say a bit creative.

[Guest]

Some like the LSL 4,5,6, are at first AL but I'm sorry to say that if I had children who didn't ever pick up a pencil or a book except when directed by an Adult I would be seriously worried. I try to create challenges so the direct teaching of a skill comes first and then the child takes that learning on and uses it independently - it might be creating parking tickets in the OLE or even writing perscriptions for the field hospital or route directions in each case the children are working independently - as for counting - a child yesterday brought me a bucket filled with pieces of Ice he had recovered from the tyres outside - wow said I there's a lot in there another child said how many? , the first child tipped them out and counted them!! 28 scal point 7 &8 achieved independently!! I then asked what they thought might happen if we brought the bucket into the classroom - would the Ice still be there today? so we decided that the best thing to do was to bring the bucket in and see what happens - unfortunately school closed today so will have to repeat this problem solving on our return to school.

 

its about being dare I say a bit creative.

 

You make it sound as if we who are saying we can't award the scale points through CI are not doing any of these things! Of course we are but I have several children who come from homes where the parents can't read or write. They never see people at home picking up a book or a pen so to them these things are very firmly in the category of "school work" and they have no interest in doing them during play, however during the quiet reading time (school policy that it happens straight after lunch unfortunately) these children will sit absorbed in looking at a book. During phonics time they can read words and phrases, and during AL writing will carefully sound out their words and make good phonetic attempts at spelling them. Just because they don't have any interest in writing in the role play area (or as is the case with some because they revert to writing in squiggles and circles in their play) doesn't mean in my mind that I should withhold these scale points. I am doing everything I can to try and introduce these things in play through modelling, tapping into their interests etc but it will be a long slog until they get out of 5 years of learned habits and family culture, in the mean time I think not awarding points I know they have met would be wrong.

[Guest]

I agree Kariana. I have a groups of children who can read quite well, when reading with an adult, and who can spell cvc words, again in adult led situations. I have tried putting books on topics out, leaving numerous mark making equipment in every area, encouraging them to take paper etc with them. I have looked at books, mark made when playing alongside them - but still they are more interested in building lego or role playing. If a moderator came in, then evidence is only there when its teacher led. I don't know what to do. Last year I gave them these points, knowing when they were asked to read or write they could - but now I am thinking I am wrong.

To be honest the whole profile part I find hard - I have no idea whether I am assessing the children correctly, and am in a constant panic state that I will fail moderation. I find it hard to observe the children, especially as some days there is only one adult in the class for 50% of the time. I think when you come to reception its taken as a given that you know what you are doing - I dont, I use stickers for quick obs, and try to obs each child for 10 mins each half term - but don't think I'm getting enough done, and don't know how to manage my time better.

[KST]

I agree Katriana and jemilyjones. I do also agree that you have to be creative but I think its fair to say that we are all creative and are all doing our best to get the children to learn and initiate the learning themselves. I was actually only talking about a real minority of children that I struggle to get reading or mark making - and definitely true that there background can hve a huge impact on that.

 

As for your concerns jemilyjones, I really really sympathise with you only having 1 adult in the class 50% of the time - this means it is impossible for you to deliver the EYFS properly! I always have at least 1 adult free to observe, like you I have sticky labels with wow moments on and do longer obs of each child every half term. I struggle with having 2 adults at times but most of the time I have a 3rd adult due to pupil specific funding, so even though she supports the child she can make other obs of other children who are playing around that child. I have also enlisted a parent - not all parents are capable of making observations but you get the odd one who you can train up! I really think the adult to pupil ratio in EYFS needs addressing so that teachers don't find themselves on their own with a class - how can you even begin to think about free flow with the outdoors with 1 adult! Rant over!

[Susan]

If you know the children can do these things with adult support then why ae you worrying about filling in the profile now--there is still loads of time to attain these independently. I would be inclined to score it with a note alongside that this is with adult support and worry about the rest later!

[catma]

Yup - they do have until June to develop the skills!

 

Cx