**changes To Ratios**

[Guest lucyevans]

In the revised EYFS released on Monday the changes to the Statutory Framework mean that childminders who care for (or have their own children) in reception class will have to count them as an under 5 until September 2009, unless they apply & receive a variation. I have confirmed with Ofsted that this is there intention and it not just a badly worded paragraph.

 

EYFS Statutory Framework page 51:

Each childminder may care for:

"a maximum of six children under the age of eight; of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children, however

where four- and five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school

day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

 

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/_doc/12628/EY...0May%202008.pdf

 

This will make it very hard for parents to find a childminder for a reception aged child as they will have to keep an under 5's place open all term. Also, childminders whose own children are starting in the reception class this September will not be able to offer a place to another child until Sept 09.

 

If enough people complain maybe they will change this.

info@dcsf.gsi.gov.uk

[Guest]

Hi Lucy,

This seems to be in conflict with an article in the NCMA magazine "Who Minds?" Spring 2008 which clarifies that "children who would otherwise be at school will continue to be classed as aged over 5" for the adult:child ratios during school holidays. This is to bring it in line with term time, so surely childminder numbers will be unaffected? Back to the NCMA after the Bank Holiday perhaps?

Nona

[Guest]

Hi Nona

what page is that article on in "Who Minds" ,I m sure it ll be there but cant see for looking!

Have been watching this thread with interest as it has huge implications for childminders if this is what Ofsted are saying.

[Guest]

Page 5 - "school holiday numbers" but you may want to check out Lucy's post earlier today under "eyfs updates - for your information" Looks like a final decision is still awaited!

Nona

Aaaaaaaaah! what about those childminders (me included!) who have made arrangements with new clients from 1st September, signed up under guidelines given in previous documents? If we have to adhere to new restricted numbers are we liable for breach of contract if we cannot then offer these places??

[Guest lucyevans]

What has happened is that the wording on Page 51 of the Statutory Framework for the EYFS we all have already states that "Each childminder may care for: a maximum of six children under the age of eight; of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children, however where four- and five-year-old children ONLY attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

 

The NCMA were expecting the revised EYFS (released last Monday) to have this wording changed to include holidays too... but it wasn't!! At an NCMA Network Coordinators & Ofsted conference on Tuesday 13th May, Liz Olsen from Ofsted informed Network Coordinators that it was indeed the case that under 5's would only be classed as such during term time!

 

Those who have phoned Ofsted in the last day or 2 to enquire about rising 5's are now being told that they will only be classed as over 5's during term time. Ofsted have been instructed to send out a letter in July to all childminders, confirming the changes.

 

Could I urge EVERYONE to take action on this one

 

If everyone emails the DCSF, NCMA, Ofsted & their local MP hopefully they'll take notice!!

 

info@dcsf.gsi.gov.uk

enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk

info@ncma.org.uk

 

http://findyourmp.parliament.uk/commons/l

 

Many thanks,

 

Lucy

[Guest]

like i keep saying to people there cant have one rule for school hoildays and one rule for tarm time,

 

And it dosent make sence to class them as under 5 in the school hoildays,

[Guest lucyevans]

like i keep saying to people there cant have one rule for school hoildays and one rule for tarm time,

 

And it dosent make sence to class them as under 5 in the school hoildays,

 

The latest I've heard is that Ofsted have been instructed by the DCSF to send a letter to all minders in July, informing them of the changes in ratios.

They are already telling minders who phone them to enquire about rising 5's that they will only be classed as over 5's during term time. You're right it doesn't make sense

Hopefully it will be deemed 'unworkable' very soon.

 

Lucy

[Guest]

will i have rmailed them and told them what i think about it and that we will be losing money

 

as me and my mum have 3 children starting school in septmber 1 will be going fulltime and will be 5 in sepetmber.

 

the other 2 will be going partime till janurey then doing full time. (i know there will still be classed as under 5s untill there start fulltime) we wont be able to offer all 3 of them a place in the hoildays, one never comes anyways in the hoildays but we wont be able to crahge them half fees if there dont a place can we

[Guest lucyevans]

will i have rmailed them and told them what i think about it and that we will be losing money

 

as me and my mum have 3 children starting school in septmber 1 will be going fulltime and will be 5 in sepetmber.

 

the other 2 will be going partime till janurey then doing full time. (i know there will still be classed as under 5s untill there start fulltime) we wont be able to offer all 3 of them a place in the hoildays, one never comes anyways in the hoildays but we wont be able to crahge them half fees if there dont a place can we

 

They will all count as under 5's during the holidays until the start of YEAR 1!

 

You may be able to get a variation if they come before & after school as well as holidays.

 

Lucy

[Guest]

I've brought this to the attention of my local Network team and they've fired off an e-mail to the Ofsted Area Manager asking for urgent clarification. They don't think that Ofsted will allow Deeds of Variation for this - they're usually to allow us to care for more than one baby under the age of 1 year.

I'm glad I don't have a child of my own going into Reception in September - I agree with earlier postings that parents are going to be hard pushed to find a childminder willing to take them on.

Other families may also find themselves receiving notice from their childminder in favour of taking on younger children who will fill the vacancy full time!

I've a family whose child goes into Reception in September and they want to retain her place for her sibling due in August - I either have to keep a 2 vacancies open and charge them a retainer until Feb 09 or decide which child to care for!

How, exactly, does this fit in to giving parents a choice of quality childcare, and/or providing continuity of care for families?

As childminders, we'll be in the firing line from (justifiably) cross parents when we cannot meet their needs.

Where are all the extra places that will be needed to take up the slack going to come from?

PLEASE let's all bring this to the attention of every childminder we know and urge them to lobby against this change.

Nona

[Guest]

They will all count as under 5's during the holidays until the start of YEAR 1!

 

You may be able to get a variation if they come before & after school as well as holidays.

 

Lucy

my mum (who bening childmindering for 19 years) says that osfed dont do variation

[Guest]

Goodness me whatever next ! This is ridiculous and totally unworkable for Childminders.....gosh do you ever get the feeling they're trying to drive Childminders to leave the profession?

 

Fortunately for me I childmind in Wales so will be unaffected by the EYFS and the Change in Ratio, however I feel for each and every one of you fellow Childminders from across the border and will quite happily lobby against this proposed change.

 

Hannah, sorry I don't understand your post below regarding Ofsted not doing variation....can you elaborate pls hun.

[Guest lucyevans]

my mum (who bening childmindering for 19 years) says that osfed dont do variation

 

Its difficult to know from the wording how easy/difficult it will be to get a variation, but your mum may well be right. They may want to know how many under 5's you already have each day.

 

This is what is says in the Statutory Guidance pg. 51

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/_doc/12628/EY...0May%202008.pdf

 

Each childminder may care for:

■■ a maximum of six children under the age of eight;

■■ of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children4, however where four- and

five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school

day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

■■ normally, no more than one child may be under the age of one, however a childminder may be

registered to care for two children under the age of one where they are able to demonstrate that

they can meet and reconcile the individual needs of all the children being cared for.

14 Exceptions to these ratios can be made for siblings and to provide continuity of care in certain

circumstances approved by Ofsted, provided that the total number of children under the age of

eight being cared for does not exceed six.

[Guest]

Its difficult to know from the wording how easy/difficult it will be to get a variation, but your mum may well be right. They may want to know how many under 5's you already have each day.

 

This is what is says in the Statutory Guidance pg. 51

http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/_doc/12628/EY...0May%202008.pdf

 

Each childminder may care for:

■■ a maximum of six children under the age of eight;

■■ of these six children, a maximum of three may be young children4, however where four- and

five-year-old children only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school

day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio;

■■ normally, no more than one child may be under the age of one, however a childminder may be

registered to care for two children under the age of one where they are able to demonstrate that

they can meet and reconcile the individual needs of all the children being cared for.

14 Exceptions to these ratios can be made for siblings and to provide continuity of care in certain

circumstances approved by Ofsted, provided that the total number of children under the age of

eight being cared for does not exceed six.

 

 

According to the DCSF, there is no intention for children who are counted as "over 5's" in term time to be counted as under 5s in the holidays if they are yet to turn 5. However, given that we are not inspected by the DCSF, someone needs to make sure that ALL the Ofsted inspectors know this!

[Sue R]

Hi Susanna,

 

and really good first post!

 

Sue

[Guest]

Good News! The Childcare Support Co-ordinator for Dudley forwarded me an e-mail from the Oftsed Area Manager

"Once the 4 year old is in 10 sessions they are "at school" and counted as a 5 year old, this would not change during holiday periods and they would still be classed as a 5 year old"

Needless to say I've saved the e-mail, printed it off & locked it away in a fireproof safe etc!!!!

Nona

[Guest]

Sorry to put a damper on things but I ve just found this on NCMA s website !!!!!!!

 

http://www.ncma.org.uk//MainWebSite/Newsli...px?Map=BNumbers during holidays

 

Following the publication of "School holiday numbers" [page 5, Who Minds? summer] NCMA has received a number of queries from members relating to the number of younger children they are able to look after during the school holidays.

 

The queries relate to the issue of rising 5s, and how this is linked to the Government definition that a child is defined as "young" up until 1st September following his or her 5th birthday.

 

At the time of publication, Ofsted confirmed that adult:child ratios will be based on the school term, and that during holidays, children who would otherwise be at school will continue to be classed as aged over 5.

 

However, following further clarification from Ofsted, NCMA has been made aware that the issue of Rising 5s is still undecided. An Ofsted spokesperson explained that, "we are still in discussion with the DCSF and lawyers about the interpretation of this aspect of the EYFS. We will provide a definitive response as soon as possible."

 

We will update you as soon as we have more information from Ofsted.

 

 

 

Source: NCMA ( 10/6/2008 )

1784A3D5483266C1FA202FB5D447ECB&NewsItemID=72&NewsGroupID=1

[Guest]

Sorry .I think I ve got the link wrong somehow as it doesnt appear to work

the website is

 

www.ncma.org.uk

Its under "current News"

[Guest]

Left hand? right hand?

Who to believe?

Think I'll go to bed and stay there, with duvet over my head, until the powers that be make their flippin' (restrained, huh! ) minds up!

Nona

[Guest]

My thoughts exactly!!

How are we meant to provide continuity of care and a wrap around service at the same time as keeping our businesses financially viable and allow parents to have the choice of childcare.

Do you think the powers that be are wanting to get rid of childminders altogether- EYFS -self evaluation forms and now this !!

ARGHHH!!!! words fail me!!

[Guest]

In the post I received a package from the Dudley childminder support co-ordinator which included

* the Letters & Sounds pack from DCSF (training available from Sept - oh goody!)

* 2 pages of changes to EYFS

* a reminder to update medication policy

* a reminder to inform ofsted of any changes or significant events

* info on the "rising 5's" (which as we now know is wrong!)

* a warning that we may need to register under the Data Protection act if records are kept on computer

* a 14 page self audit tool to check eligibility for early years capital grant funding

* an offer to join the Neighbourhood Care scheme

* an offer to register as a foster carer

* details of an Inland Revenue Self Assessment training course (fun!)

* and a partridge in a pear tree............(ok, I made that 1 up!)

 

Children???????? Childcare??????????? When do I find time for that??????????????

 

I'm going back under the duvet & taking them with me!

Nona

[Guest lucyevans]

In the post I received a package from the Dudley childminder support co-ordinator which included

* the Letters & Sounds pack from DCSF (training available from Sept - oh goody!)

* 2 pages of changes to EYFS

* a reminder to update medication policy

* a reminder to inform ofsted of any changes or significant events

* info on the "rising 5's" (which as we now know is wrong!)

* a warning that we may need to register under the Data Protection act if records are kept on computer

* a 14 page self audit tool to check eligibility for early years capital grant funding

* an offer to join the Neighbourhood Care scheme

* an offer to register as a foster carer

* details of an Inland Revenue Self Assessment training course (fun!)

* and a partridge in a pear tree............(ok, I made that 1 up!)

 

Children???????? Childcare??????????? When do I find time for that??????????????

 

I'm going back under the duvet & taking them with me!

Nona

[Guest lucyevans]

Ofsted call centre staff were told at a course on Monday that although Ofsted are challenging the DCSF on this issue, they don't expect to win, so they should prepare themselves to be inundated with complaints from childminders and parents!

[Guest]

In response to my email about NCMA article, Dudley Childminder Support co-ordinator e-mailed:

I also asked Brian at our meeting this week, who confirmed his email. If they say something nationally which is different to this then so be it, but I am inclined to go with our local bod's advice.

("Brian" is the Ofsted Area Manager)

I'm still not sure who to believe - can't believe Dudley is going to be given special dispensation to work to

Seriously though, the information on here is usually so good, and reliable, I'd be very reluctant to dismiss it.

Nona

[Guest]

Hi,

 

I have been talking to the DCFS about this issue as they are the body that are responsible for the EYFS (Ofsted inspect against it) and the DCFS have given me the following information - backed up in writing:

 

"I should explain that where four and five year olds attend school full-time and only attend the childminding setting before and after the school day, they can be counted as children over the age of five for the purposes of the ratio requirements. These children may also be counted as children over the age of five during the school holidays".

 

This puts my mind at rest and hopefully yours too.

[Guest]

Thanks, Decima - looks like common sense has prevailed!

Nona