MegaMum Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 We have just had the e-mail too. Rolling it out in April, but of course they aren't prepared for it, so will be giving us further details in the next few weeks!! How can you send out letters to parents, when you don't know what is going on or how much funding we are getting when they skim their share etc? As usual, the ones that it matters most to are left in the dark. I'm like you NickyR, I can only offer it to the few that are doing above their 15 hours already and I won't be able to offer it to others as we are fairly full, albeit the odd session. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafa Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I'm with you MegaMum, feel very cross that we are being asked to make a business decision NOW, when we do not even know if it is affordable from a business point of view. Providers everywhere have been treated very unfairly by this government. Secrets and Lies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Just heard our county will be offering it from April ....I haven't even prepared for September :-( 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsp Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Are any of you that are trialing from April willing to say which counties you are from? It's ok I have just clicked on the Nursery World link. Edited January 27, 2017 by lsp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouseketeer Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 just read the link, it looks as if we've been invited so they can see how the lowest funded counties fare, having gone from being one of the highest funded to one of the lowest under the new formula :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMum Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I am in Leicestershire...one of the 3 lowest funded counties that the DFE are using as guinea pigs to see how we cope and our LEA have approved it without any consultation of those delivering it!, No guaranteed funding......is this government for real? I am so disgusted, and so irate that they are arrogant enough to think I will consider it without enough information, let alone implementing it in April! So cross 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I am in Leicestershire...one of the 3 lowest funded counties that the DFE are using as guinea pigs to see how we cope and our LEA have approved it without any consultation of those delivering it!, No guaranteed funding......is this government for real? I am so disgusted, and so irate that they are arrogant enough to think I will consider it without enough information, let alone implementing it in April! So cross can you and your county colleagues get together and talk to your MP and early years leaders. My feeling is that they are trying to divide and conquer ! How are the full day care establishments feeling?? Remember they NEED us to provide this..if we refuse or kick up a stink about the situation they will have to listen ...if we just accept what they throw at us then we just have to shut up and get on with it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I had a visit from my pvi teacher and we talked about the 30 hrs. The LEA are advising settings to offer 2 lots of 3 hour funded sessions ie morning and afternoons over the week and to charge over lunch time and if you have a before and after school club to charge there to keep sustainable. It can be the setting and not the parent that decides what part of the preschool day is funded. So for me being governed by a school we have a before and after club for the whole of school where funding is not used (run by different manager but also governed by school), preschool morning session which is funded for 3 hrs, lunch not funded (we don't currently charge except for hot dinner if wanted), afternoon session which is funded for 3 hrs. I have children that attend before and after school club which they are charged for, then come to preschool for eg 9 hrs per week. I suppose we are offering the 30 hrs but in a way that works for us. (or the school). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsp Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Hi Marley. How will you fit in/arrange your parents that don't qualify for 30 hours. Will you have certain sessions or a set number of sessions a week that they can access? Just trying to 'get my head around' the options! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMum Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 And are we offering just 15 or 30 hours? Some of mine currently do 21 hours. (Total amount we are open) What if parents only want 24 hours or 18? It's a minefield, and I feel we have very little support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 At the moment I only have 2 children doing 30 hrs per week. I still have vacancies in the morning and afternoons are quieter. Most of my parents not actually using the full 15 hrs! I only take 3 yr olds at the moment and come sept so far will be left with 2 children as the rest go upto reception. The thing that is holding me back is the limited space in the before and after school club which is full on Tues and a Thurs which some of my parents need for work. Think this is where a rethink is needed by the school as we are trying to compete with the day nurseries that do offer the full day as they have space. Some of my children are attending other settings also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 A meeting for all local settings is taking place this week and meetings between finance from our LA and settings are also taking place or have just took place. Due to our funding rate being heavily reduced we are hoping for at least a transitional period before the full amount of funding is reduced (from April) and hopefully an increased rate. The increased rate is unlikely due to this new "fairer formula" from central Government. Although the formula seems fairer overall, many areas will be worse off than before. Although the rates are lower for us, it won't be as bad from September due to the 30 hours demand (we hope) allowing us to quickly take children who are eligible (approx 80% in our area) and with insufficient spaces available in our area we should be able to change our business model based on less opening hours (due to 10% cap on supplements taking away incentives to open longer) We will also increase our Pre-School numbers if and when required thus reducing babies and some toddler spaces. PROS: Less staff wages and other bills. CONS: We will also not be able to take on full time children for the working families who actually require it!! Although with that being said.. many of these working families, should be able to once again, afford it. This would have to be at a premium rate though, so once again it could price many people out of using us! To send out questionnaires, to potential parents is a good idea. It would raise awareness of the 30 hours from September, and it could also gauge, how many would take up the additional hours and at what rate they are willing to pay for this service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafa Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I had a visit from my pvi teacher and we talked about the 30 hrs. The LEA are advising settings to offer 2 lots of 3 hour funded sessions ie morning and afternoons over the week and to charge over lunch time and if you have a before and after school club to charge there to keep sustainable. It can be the setting and not the parent that decides what part of the preschool day is funded. So for me being governed by a school we have a before and after club for the whole of school where funding is not used (run by different manager but also governed by school), preschool morning session which is funded for 3 hrs, lunch not funded (we don't currently charge except for hot dinner if wanted), afternoon session which is funded for 3 hrs. I have children that attend before and after school club which they are charged for, then come to preschool for eg 9 hrs per week. I suppose we are offering the 30 hrs but in a way that works for us. (or the school). "Additional services" as I understand it have not been agreed by .Gov yet. Charging for the hour between 2 sessions (for lunch) is an additional service and this is the murky area. The 30 hours is to be totally free without conditions (I believe?) Soooo, you cannot (unless agreed by .Gov ) charge for ANY part of the 30 hours if parent does not want to. We are supposed to make it accessible - if a parent has to 'pick up' at lunch time because they cannot/will not pay the charge - it isn't accessible? With PVI's I understand some in the pilots have introduced 2 contracts One all singing all dancing (that includes lunch time) One basic 30hours with no hidden extras!! That's what I know........and I know NOTHING! Ha! Of course, school rules may differ : / Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafa Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 And are we offering just 15 or 30 hours? Some of mine currently do 21 hours. (Total amount we are open) What if parents only want 24 hours or 18? It's a minefield, and I feel we have very little support. As I understand it??? You can offer any amount of hours per week up to 30 'free' MegaMum. Your right it will be a minefield, eligible parents will be miffed if they cannot access their 'freebie' and we are miffed at having this thrown at us from a great height to deal with! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 "Additional services" as I understand it have not been agreed by .Gov yet. Charging for the hour between 2 sessions (for lunch) is an additional service and this is the murky area. The 30 hours is to be totally free without conditions (I believe?) Soooo, you cannot (unless agreed by .Gov ) charge for ANY part of the 30 hours if parent does not want to. We are supposed to make it accessible - if a parent has to 'pick up' at lunch time because they cannot/will not pay the charge - it isn't accessible? With PVI's I understand some in the pilots have introduced 2 contracts One all singing all dancing (that includes lunch time) One basic 30hours with no hidden extras!! That's what I know........and I know NOTHING! Ha! Of course, school rules may differ : / You can charge whatever you like.. as long as you give Parents a choice. They can either arrange to collect their child or make other arrangements to collect their child and then bring back for the afternoon OR they can pay the little amount to keep them for the lunchtime session. This is clear as day. The only problem you might have is your competition down the road will not be doing this.. and allowing children 6 hour sessions including a "free" lunch ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafa Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 You can charge whatever you like.. as long as you give Parents a choice. They can either arrange to collect their child or make other arrangements to collect their child and then bring back for the afternoon OR they can pay the little amount to keep them for the lunchtime session. This is clear as day. The only problem you might have is your competition down the road will not be doing this.. and allowing children 6 hour sessions including a "free" lunch ... Yep! Choice is key! As has been quoted OUR choice is we take it or leave it - Hobson's Choice?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpymum Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 If you are not on the Champagne Nurseries Lemonade Funding Facebook page, please join! There is so much on there about structuring sessions for the 30 hours, including what does and doesn't work from settings in the Early Implementer areas. Read this if you haven't already seen it (sorry can't get link to work!) - it says in black and white what you can and can't charge for and this should be your guidelines, challenge your LA if they are telling you any different! https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/early-years-business-sustainability-guides-for-providers/extra-sources-of-income-for-early-years-providers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpymum Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 If you are not on the Champagne Nurseries Lemonade Funding Facebook page, please join! There is so much on there about structuring sessions for the 30 hours, including what does and doesn't work from settings in the Early Implementer areas. Read this if you haven't already seen it (sorry can't get link to work!) - it says in black and white what you can and can't charge for and this should be your guidelines, challenge your LA if they are telling you any different! https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/early-years-business-sustainability-guides-for-providers/extra-sources-of-income-for-early-years-providers Oh, the link did work! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 Yep! Choice is key! As has been quoted OUR choice is we take it or leave it - Hobson's Choice?? Some people might struggle with this choice.. "take it or leave it?" Many will have NO choice but to offer the 30 hours, otherwise they will lose out to the other local settings, who do offer it. I don't see why it is even a choice to "leave it" when you get the same rate in either case. It is much easier to care for 1 child for 30 hours than 2 children for 15 hours each. Less paperwork, planning etc.. more consistency for the 30 hours child... the ONLY issues seems to be: 1) Lunch Times.. 2) Lower Hourly Rate than a private payer.. Solution for 1) Either allow packed lunches (like schools) or provide a meal either for free or at a small charge. Solution for 2) Limit the number of "free" spaces.. take more children who are not eligible for 30 hours and who want extra hours so you can charge your usual fee's. Maybe: Take 30 hour eligible children who require full time care.. and charge for the additional hours at a higher rate.. This solution depends on demand of course.. and many settings simply don't have this demand at the moment. Although, this could change once the 30 hours is rolled out in their area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSFRebecca Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 This searchable databse created by PLA is interesting - you can see how much LAs are getting and how much they are giving to providers - you can also see which LAs have not yet given over this information. Once you do get your confirmation you can let the PLA know and they will update the database. 2017/18 funding database 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyday Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I don't see why it is even a choice to "leave it" when you get the same rate in either case. It is much easier to care for 1 child for 30 hours than 2 children for 15 hours each. Less paperwork, planning etc.. more consistency for the 30 hours child... the ONLY issues seems to be: I would rather 'leave it' thank you :lol: Not all parents will be looking for 30 hours - I have said several times that most of my 'mums' are at home with their under fives......... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMum Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Hot off the press.... our LEA has just released our funding rates. They are getting £4.30 and giving us a £3.97 base rate with deprivation of 4 - 8p so this is up by a whopping 34p and 2 year olds are going up a whole 7p an hour. Let me get out my wand and wave miracles. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafa Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Hot off the press.... our LEA has just released our funding rates. They are getting £4.30 and giving us a £3.97 base rate with deprivation of 4 - 8p so this is up by a whopping 34p and 2 year olds are going up a whole 7p an hour. Let me get out my wand and wave miracles. The trouble is Megamum we have all been achieving miracles for so long that the Government continue to take the pee! So a future of more "make do and mend' then! Quality? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMum Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 The trouble is Megamum we have all been achieving miracles for so long that the Government continue to take the pee! So a future of more "make do and mend' then! Quality? Achieveing miracles??? I agree we have been doing that for far far far too long - which is our fault. I for one, am not rolling out the 30 hours with only 7 weeks to recruit, vet and get DBS status checked etc. I had one parent today that didn't agree with the 30 hours being implemented so fast in Summer term and she gave many reasons why she didn't think we should do it. For example having to recruit just to open 30 hours, which would change the dynamics of a very good team. It could unsettle the children, employing someone new in their (school leavers) last term, not to mention the impact it would have on staff having to work extra hours, and how this would affect our lives. She was a breath of fresh air and I really felt cared for by this parent and we were made to feel valued, rather than the rest who have been keen to know how to sign up to their 'free' hours. I sent out questionnaires from our LEA asking what hours parents would ideally like. I had one parent say we should open from 8:30 - 5pm. That is longer than a school day, for non school aged children. And for what.... I don't think in the majority of cases in my situation, it is to work! For those of us in Leicestershire, I think we should not be so quick to jump on the bandwagon to make this work for the government. They need to make it work for us! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceinWonderland Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 We have just received the proposed rates for April, I'm not happy! I maybe haven't understood all this very well, but i thought that we were going to get a minimum of 93% given to us from our LA but that doesn't seem to be the case. I didn't realise that the amount that is passed on was an overall amount, not to individual providers. So basically, to get any sort of increase we have to employ a teacher, be graded outstanding and live in the most deprived area. Unfortunately for me, we can't afford a teacher, we are graded good and we are in the slightly better part of town! We have a meeting about this next week and a survey to complete before it is all finalised. They are proposing to use part of the funding to add to the SEN inclusion fund, which will count towards them passing on the required % of funding to providers, which is a joke as we hardly get any help at all, we have a disabled child at our setting and have to wait ages for equipment to help the child, and when something does arrive, it's dirty, battered, broken etc or no longer fit for purpose as the child has grown. Feeling very let down at the moment :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Some people might struggle with this choice.. "take it or leave it?" Many will have NO choice but to offer the 30 hours, otherwise they will lose out to the other local settings, who do offer it. And some will have no choice but NOT to offer it because they can't do the hours in their current buildings...perhaps forcing them to close? I don't see why it is even a choice to "leave it" when you get the same rate in either case. Which is currently way under what we need and at present we cross subsidise in order to up the base level .Cross subsidisation will become much more tricky when you have no additional hours to offer It is much easier to care for 1 child for 30 hours than 2 children for 15 hours each. Less paperwork, planning etc.. more consistency for the 30 hours child... the ONLY issues seems to be: 1) Lunch Times.. 2) Lower Hourly Rate than a private payer.. Or your ethos is not based on this premise and you were originally set up to support families to look after their children rather than let someone else bring them up?!!! Also becoming a full day care establishment means that you are in direct competition to the big boys like asquiths and busy bees.....and you'll never win against them! Solution for 1) Either allow packed lunches (like schools) or provide a meal either for free or at a small charge. Solution for 2) Limit the number of "free" spaces.. take more children who are not eligible for 30 hours and who want extra hours so you can charge your usual fee's. Maybe: Take 30 hour eligible children who require full time care.. and charge for the additional hours at a higher rate.. This solution depends on demand of course.. and many settings simply don't have this demand at the moment. Although, this could change once the 30 hours is rolled out in their area. Or your demand is so high that you feel letting 50% of your clientele down is a problem for you....of course I can forget funded 2's (have had 6 applications this week alone!) and anyone who's not prepared to pay for extra sessions or hours oh and of course if they're not born in September to December ...as I wont be able to keep places open for the year...I won't be able to afford to! Sorry Broadoaks ...just wanted to give a different slant to your post. It will work out for some of us but not for everyone and certainly not for the children...they family may be better of financially but at what cost??????? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroadOaks Posted February 2, 2017 Author Share Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Not all settings are the same or will run the same, I appreciate this. If you struggle already, with getting children to take the 15 hours then this 30 hours funding shouldn't really be that much of an issue? Yes, the rates are low.. if you want to get them raised, do what York did! This takes many settings all coming together as 1 voice.. we had a very successful meeting last night and the room was packed with setting owners and childminders. We plan to take a stand.. BUT in the meantime we have to prepare for this looming 30 hours. We are a business at the end of the day.. without the right business model we couldn't do what we do best! IF the rates don't increase.. many will be faced with limited options as I discussed above. Edited February 2, 2017 by BroadOaks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verona Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 All along I have been thinking that I wouldn't take on 30 hour funding but I am now getting concerned that I may lose families to those settings that are offering the full 30 hours. At present we are open 24 hours, Monday, Wednesday and Friday 9-1 and Tuesday and Friday 9-3. We are a pack away setting that takes 5 of us 30 minutes to set up and pack away each day. Three of those staff need to leave dead on 3.30pm to go collect their children from school. Four of us are in by 8am but one of them can't get in until 8.30am. At present we have the last half hour before opening, doing our paper work which is greatbut we would lose this time if we opened earlier. Staff are not keen to do more hours but we are having a meeting in a few weeks time to go through more options. As I wasn't thinking of offering 30 hours, I must admit I haven't really checked with current parents what their thoughts/wishes were - not good I know. Now I am thinking I must do something about it as September is looming. West Sussex have let us know the basic funding fees from April - 2 year olds were £4.94 per hour and will be £5.10 per hour - 16p per child per hour extra 3/4 year olds were £3.77 per hour and will be £4.42 per hour - 65p per child per hour extra EYPP stays the same at 53p per child per hour up to 15 hours. Now we will be the same as the maintained Nursery Schools and Nursery classes which they don't like. I am resorting to have to ask for help from you lovely people. Is anyone willing to share a parent survey/questionnaire that they have used please. I thought there was a draft copy on West Sussex EY butcan't find one. Any help would be appreciated. V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFCCCC Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I have sent out my letter to parents trying to explain how we are working the new system - we are changing to a 4 hr morning session 9-1 (inc lunch) and then 1-4 for the afternoon session - one parent has already complained that as she only gets 15 hrs funding (she'll be on maternity leave so assume not classed as working?) and will have to pay for the 12-1 - she isn't happy and I find it very difficult because I currently am extremely flexible - too flexible to be financially viable which is the reason for the change. At the moment parents purely pay for the hours they attend ie if start at 0930 only pay from 0930 even though the session starts at 0900. I agree it is a nightmare especially as we are working blind as we have had nothing confirmed by Local Authority. According to the policy guidance, she will still be entitled to 30 hours whilst on maternity leave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finleysmaid Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 so we have just received our funding rates...taking in to account the reductions (i refuse to call them supplements..they aren't) the contribution to the LEA's funding pot from our setting alone is 11k! if i was to work this out on the base rate Our contribution would be 24k! now IF i got anything from the lea i would be happy to pay a contribution but what the heck am i paying for! Our finance officer is a gem! however we get NO sen support, no teaching support, little social services support and have HUGE waiting lists for every support service and what's more all of that is to be outsourced to another borough...so guess that will be even less then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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