Wow,

holiday, holiday I'm over the moon - forget the weather I can cope, it's just great to be on holiday!

Easter's here and one staff member has saved up three weeks worth of long observations, post it notes and a range of photos she's printed out too!!!

I'm concerned and really need to encourage her and a couple of others to update a bit more regularly, however....I know how hard it is to find time to complete the folder work.

I have managed to work out we can pay roughly one hour per week for each key person to get the work done as an incentive, but I don't want that to b e taken advantage of.

Any suggestions - have you found a way of getting the staff more involved, without intruding in their home lives?


Spiral.

Hi Spiral
I have a similar problem. The staff get some paid time to update, to do when and where they like. Most are very conscientious and put in many more hours than they are paid for but a couple do the bare minimum. The problem is they do just enough to make it hard for me to criticize and just about at the right time too. How can you be fair to both types of staff?
I shall be watching with interest to see if someone comes along with some good suggestions
Caro

in same boat I have come home with an enormous piles of stuff.

On HOldiay I said mmmmmm

Exactly,

that's why I find it hard to criticise - because all of mine have come home this Easter too - yet that is with an increased workload...oooh - practice what you preach eh?!

Before I started at the setting the staff were paid to do it at home, however it often got left until there was loads of assessing to do. When I joined I managed to get the committe to understand that assessing children's learning and progress was an integral part of a key persons role, they agreed to three hours a week non contact time for assessing, which takes place at the setting.

From this term we're going to have a bit of extra non-contact time which will happen over the lunchtime so that no-one needs to take anything home. Also we have one morning a week when we dont' need to set up in the morning so we can use that time too. We're lucky (?) because we have so few children so we can organise things so that updating files can be done during the session time. Which makes it much easier to support staff who need it, too.

It is such a difficult one to manage, isn't it?

Maz

Ah, Spiral. I can beat your 3 weeks with my Deputy who is 7 weeks behind on hers!

She is paid for 3 hours work outside the setting. She stays behind each day for an extra 30-60 minutes helping to clear up and do jobs so uses up most of her 3 hours time in that way.
I am always saying to her to use that time to do folders but she will do anything else to fill her time rather than that.
After half-term I said make sure your folders are in the setting so that when we have got lots of adults in you can have some time to do them.
Each week when I say 'you can be non-contact today' she either hasn't got the right folder or has left her obs. folder at home etc.
I really feel she is missing the point of these folders being a working active document. How can we actively plan for a child's next steps if the info. is 7 weeks out of date?

I am also a few weeks behind but I know I will get it done this holiday whereas i think she will come back saying, 'sorry we've been away' or 'I forgot the folders' or some excuse....

Quite agree with everyone.
I have managed to keep up with my folders but some of the girls in the setting are up to 6 weeks behind. I agree, how can you plan for next steps if you are that far behnd. We have half heartedly tried to have non contact time in the setting but something always manages to get in the way! Will keep an eye to see if anyone else has any ideas, otherwise this has prompted me to talk to my Managr and see if we can push non contact time a bit harder to get it to work.
Ruth

Gosh, that's pretty hard,

Could you bring it up in a staff meeting - maybe saying
'the setting feels that folders must be kept up to date at all times and that if they are not kept up weekly (fortnightly in the worst case), further action could be considered'?

I tried very hard to get the parents involved and our parents regularly take home their children's journals - this could be a way of making her feel that she has to keep them up to date..as you know it hasn't worked with my current staff member - but yours may behave differently?

Spiral

A useful tip> before they had non contact time, I insisted the children's folders were sent home at the end of each term, I stated this to parents in the monthly information letter, its surprising how this focused everyone's minds, as its not very professional explaining to parents why their children's profiles are 7 weeks behind. Incidently we still send the profiles home and have a comments sheet inside each one for parents to write in.

I work in a preschool setting with 43 children on the register, our staff get half an hour per week during lunch time to do folders and we have a target child system in which each key person has one child a day to concentrate on and the folder of that child is kept out all day for adding any obs, pics and work too. The half hour a week gives them a chance to work on one folder per week tweaking sometimes able to do more htan one. The folders are kept in trays that the children and parents can add to daily if they wish and this motivates staff to keep folders up to date. Hope this helps. I also just had ofsted who liked the system and we got Outstanding over every area.

I work in a nursery attached to a school. We review 3 children from our key worker group a week. This means we have to organise observations and up date their learning journey. We also have to meet with the child's parents to talk about their progress and next steps. The 2 TA in the nursery get 3 sessons of 45 minutes a week to do these reviews. I have had a problem with one of the TA not doing the 3 reviews during the week, so I spoke to her saying that it will be me getting in trouble with SMT if they are not done so I have produced a timetable with her where she wrties down which children she is doing in each slot and when she is meeting the parents. We are on the 2nd week of this happening and so far it seems to be working. The timetable is also displayed in the office so I can make comments to her like "how are you going with so-in-so review" so she knows that i am monitoring what she is doing. Fingers crossed this will sort out the problem.

The issue of folders and non- contact time is always a sticky one, and when the excuses started to be rolled out by my staff about 'not being able to do them as they were at home' I realised that 'some' staff were then not utilising thier in work non-contact time properly, and then claiming extra hours for work at home. I stopped all files going home ( there is a major issue about confidentiality anyway when the files are not in the building) we established regular timetabled non-contact for all staff fortnightly by drafting in a 'cover' person twice a week , and termly reports are now needed for every child - and bingo, it seems to be working pretty well so far .

As for the Deputy who is weeks behind - is there an issue with her not being confident doing the files maybe , and by hiding them at home and using avoidance tactics she is hoping you won't find out . Maybe you need to ask her to bring them all in - look through them and suggest that you give her a hand with them to catch up ( it may be she has got so far behind she is lost as to what to do next?)

And there is always the age old idea of incentivising - the person who gets thier folders up to date and keeps them that way maybe gets thier 'non-contact' time to have a bit of time off occasionally, or a prize of some sort ? I know we all realise that it is part of our job but for some people the whole concept of paperwork and Learning Journeys etc are a real struggle and they may need just that little extra element to make sure it gets done ?

Some practitioners are better than others at getting their observations written up, but I usually find they always manage it in time for parents' evening which is once a term.

Some hand write them and other's keep a typed log going which they paste in digital pictures of children learning. These look best but not everyone has time to do this.

Each key person has 10 children each to observe, which I think is plenty, but we have 80 children on role to observe and 10 staff in total.

The records have got more time consuming over the years and everyone moans about the time they take. There seems no solution to it, we just have to do it!

When staff take a photo they write a sticky label also. I print all photos at home then match them up with labels. They are left on table for staff to put in folders each day. Our folders are available each day for parents so this keeps staff on their toes. We usually find a spare 10 minutes a day to update. We have a large circle time at the end of the session which involves singing/story time usually with only 2 staff members. This enables other staff to catch up if they haven't found time during the session. I think the secret is little and often.When I see that a staff member hasn't had time i ask them to do it at circle time. We have had some inhouse training on a termly basis, usually only lasting for half the day. We use the rest of the day to discuss, update folders etc.Staff are allowed to take folders home if they are in early before parents but I really try to avoid them having to do this.

Hi
Well as i think i have said previously working for a charity pre-school they just cant afford to pay the 15 staff non-contact time. We all get paid 1 hour PER TERM to update files. I have 11 key children, work full time ie all the hours that the pre-school is open and so i have no choice but to do it at home. However, I always make sure that the files are kept up to date and brought back every day.

A few of you say that parents are given free access to files by using trays. We have told parents they are allowed to see them but not one has asked to. If your files are in trays cant anyone access them? Is there not a concern thaqt parents could get hold of wrong folders? Would love to get parents more involved with our folders. At the moment i have just got my new setting to give the folders to parents when the children just start to gain info from a parnts point of view about their children and where they think their children are in their stage of development..a good base-line to start from. I am now thinking of asking supervisor if we can give the folders to parents over a half term holiday to look at, make comments add etc. I know some parents just will not be interested and the thought that these files could get lost is a thought also.

At my current setting we also do not have parent interviews. It is always said to parents that they can speak to their childs keyperson or the supervisor when they would like. Out of my 10 children i have only ever had one parent come to me and ask about their child. The supervisor is of the opinion that as we are all very approachable etc that this system is ok. Must admit last setting i was at we held interviews and asked parents to sign up for them if they wanted to see their keyperson. I got one!!

How do you do it? Is is very informal like us or do you do it more formally?
Sorry seemed to have gone off on a tangent and hijacked the thread!

Any info appreciated.

When I started giving parents access to folders i explained this in the newsletters and just added a little note explaining importance of confidentiality.I am always standing nearby where I can see all parents and the folders.Each key person has their own seperate box. As a parent picks up their childs folder I hover close by. If they have any queries they can speak to childs key person. To ensure all parents look at their childs folder each half term I ask them to sign a register list. If parents are working its more difficult. Usually childminders or grandparents pick up these children and are quite happy to look and share information.Instead I give parents a sheet with achieved/next steps on. I don't like sending folders home. They usually do come back but sometimes they don't look after them properly and I feel this devalues it.

Wow, interesting stuff!

We book our 'scrapbooks' out and we ask the parents to sign to say they have taken them home too.

Many parents came in and asked to take them home for the Easter period as family were coming round or in two cases the family were travelling abroad and wanted to show their family in their native country (how lovely)!

As for parents coming in - they have open access, but usually we only see them at the beginning/end of the day . . it will be reiterated on a newsletter that they are welcome to make an appointment at any time but we'll see

Spiral.

Wow very impressed Anita and congrats on your outstanding report.

I am interested to know how many staff you have and how many key children they each have. We currently have 5 staff including myself and we each have upto 14/15 children in our groups. Myself and my deputy share a group.

For us this really is a major bug bear, unfortunately with the nature of the job this is how it is, loads of paperwork in your own time!

I like your idea of having books permanently available for parents to see/add to. Up until now ours go out 'occassionally' to parents, if I increased the amount of times these went out perhaps this would give staff the insentive to keep them up to date or would I increase the amount of pressure on them???? I really don't know. I will be watching this thread for the magical answer. Our key persons do not get paid any extra money for doing this by the way, although we are quite well paid in the scheme of things; level 2 practitioner on almost £7.00.

Debbie

Our childrens Learning Journeys are all out on open shelves ( one for each Keyworker group) in the foyer/cloakroom area and our parents are invited to access them whenever they choose, this was encouraged by Early Years and our Advisory Teacher even suggested we put a note on the shelves inviting parenst to take a look . There have been no issues with confidentiality or people picking up wrong folders and the parents like it.

There is no point to an observation if it is not looked and and used the week it is written. How can you enable the environment, use the childrens interests or scaffold their learning three weeks after the event!!

Harsh as it sounds working outside of paid hours is a known part of our remit and i am sure that your staff would have known this when they were employed. I would not be happy if they were my staff not completing journals etc on a weekly basis.

My staff are paid for working an hour extra at home, i know that this probably takes them a little longer, but sadly it goes with the job just as staff on a checkout til in a supermarket may work a little longer and not be paid if their relief is late!

I update my folders every day and encourage my two nursery nurses to update their folders each week, and expect them to use the time after school to do so (as the children leave an hour before their finish time). Mostly the folders stay up to date, but when I feel they're slipping I just make a comment on the fact that I have twice as many key children as they do and I mustn't let it all build up or it'll take me forever (makes them think of their own then!). I print around 70 photos a week and sort them into piles of key worker and then morning and afternoon sessions, if you don't stick all those in then the following week its hell as there are 70ish more! (As was beautifully demonstrated by my being ill and no photos being printed for 2 weeks!). Each person is responsible for filing their own observations and sticking in their own photos and also updating tally sheets so I can see at a glance which children are not being observed as often etc. The idea of learning journals was new to them when I arrived at Xmas, but they can see the merits of them and like looking at all the photos etc. so that in itself is an incentive!

hi

Im in a a nursery setting and my children are going to school in september. We have 2 members of staff with 18 children each and a trainee who has 4. most days of the week we have 24 children in the room and find it very hard to keep our books upto date. we have a development book, a tracking document and a all about me book for every child. i try to do my books at the same time as doing activites with the children. we are not allowed to take any of our work home.

There are only 3 members of staff at my setting but we take it in turns to have a 'helping hand'. This child get to sit on a chair at registration (wow!), choosing the songs, stories, hands round plates at snack, pours drinks, lines up first, etc. and gets a certificate at the end of the day....

All lovely for the child.... plus the staff member updates their development file, collates obs. stickers, identifies an area needed for long observation, feeds developmental needs into planning documents,

plus,

summarises stages for parents, identifies next steps and ask for comments - this is also copied for other settings the child attends. Responses are also linked into planning.


So, all the files are never up to date at any one time - it's more a rolling programme!! Works well for us though because just once or twice a week I spend 15 minutes during the session (or after) updating an individual file and the information I gleam is more useful for imforming future planning.

Never feels that we are 'bogged' down with paperwork! Although at the end of each term we do tend to go through all our files just to make sure they are all OK.

Hope that helps!

HI interesting thread here,
But if I was in charge I know I would be hot on the case and if staff are not doing them at home then surely the policy has to change then they have to be done on site.....

I also think that Leadership should have more of an impact of ensuring staff do their folders and observations are essential each week like someone commented what is the point of observation and planning if its not done weekly. I know its a sticky situation but time is hard but is it not in their job description to keep up to date as if not surely that action can lead to disciplinary actions.

Difficult one I know my place have non contact time and plenty of staff who are given opportunity to complete while other staff in ratio with children. very effective and is kept up to date weekly.

Hope you resolve this....
Moonshine

I wish we got paid for the extra time

I feel awful asking them to stay back once a term for a meetin. How can I ask them to stay back every week for an hour or so unpaid? Is it really fair of me to ask them?

I feel a lot of responsibility for the fact that some of my staff have seriously slipped on the quality and quantity of obs and updating...but I've made the mistake of trusting them to do a good job and to take it seriously and to work to provide the parents with something they themselves would love to have. Such a blow when I looked at some of them!!
I feel pretty annoyed actually at myself as well as them because I know I should have checked it sooner....but then again they are all aware what needs to be done, have job descriptions, have seen what I have done and know what I expected...so why wasnt it done?. Really don't know if parents will notice (unless they compare a completed one!) but I know its substandard and I'm sooo dissapointed for the children and parents.
As im still thinking a lot of the responsibility was mine I wonder if I can / should take it further? If so how?
Any suggestions?

I know just how you feel!

You say that practitioners are aware of what needs to be done, and what is expected of them. Is there any mileage in setting a regular date in the diary for you to moderate their folders, telling them what the criteria for moderation are so that they know what you will be looking for, and when they need to have files updated by? You might also need to do a few 'spot checks' as a kind of formative assessment so that you can identify any problems or weaknesses earlier on.

This might be too late for this term's leavers but might help you in the long term.

I agree with you that there's a fine line between leaving them to get on and do the job they are paid (and equipped) for but also in ensuring standards are upheld.

Good luck - let us know what you decide to do!

Maz

I am setting dates to check them from now on for exactly this reason. I too am extremely disappointed but I am in the fortunate position of being able to partly rectify the worst offenders. I don't know if this is the answer but if I think of anything else I'll let you know.

Ditto am in the same situation

In the EYFS class in our school the practioners are paid an extra few hours a week to do the profiles and have a staff meeting. For them they update every week and when in that room I used to update them every week though I did encourage the children to stick items in their books. I think it does depend on your staff, I worked with people who updated without being asked but know this is not always the case. I think it's a case of offering the extra hour paid as an incentive to do the work.

Gosh, this is certainly interesting and it seems that so many of us are coming against the same concerns;

Can we afford to pay staff to update folders?
Is the quality of input good enough?
Can we create systems to monitor the quality without offending staff?
Is it good enough when the folders aren't updated weekly/daily?
How can we ask for this when there isn't finance to cover the pay?

We have tried to do all manner of things;

- I have teamed staff up with a more senior team member so they can work together like a mentor

- Staff have been paid 10 minutes per key child to do their folders weekly - this is costly as we have 53 children though.

- I have provided in house support by showing techniques that can be used to the staff at meetings

- There have been visits from the Advisory Teaching expert from our Council

- when a staff member is supernumerary, they send another one off to get their folders done in a quiet space (it is rare that staff are supernumerary)

In the end, I am reverting to asking everyone else on the forum what they do! It is important for me to consider that my own expectations are too high - after all I am asking intelligent, part time staff who earn less than a supermarket employee, to provide a document which reflects a child's life time achievements.

It's a difficult balance and the more I think about it, the more I feel there should be gov't funding to cover the cost of demanding the staff do this.

Spiral .

Well at least i'm not alone in being caught out then.
I've had systems in place for checking reports each term and I guess I thought if they were at least passable the files would be too as after all the info comes from there - how wrong was I?!
I dont ask staff to do any more than what I do - I have more key children too...we all have an hours paid admin time per week.
I'll admit I go over the top when I'm doing files just because I want to send something truly special home at the end of the year but all I'm looking is something thats well presented, reflects the years experiences and a keypersons special understanding of a child....there is no excuse for falling below that. I will have to challenge it.

At least now Im aware I can, and plan to, make sure it doesnt happen next year.

my staff were not doing any observations, planning or other paperwork. They come in at 2:30 and usually have 15 minutes before they have to go to pick up a child. they used to be allowed to leave early if children left early, but as soon as we announced evaluation 10 min meetings, I was told that it was impossible to finish clearing up before 6:30. Then we suspended the evaluation for a few weeks, and suddnely they were regularly ready to leave at 6:15. In the ned I announced that I was thnking of employing a Level3, who could do the job that they can't. They are all Level2. I also said that this would mean that we would be overstaffed and I would therefore have to make someone redundant. Slight improvement!!! I know that you are suposed to get better results from rewards and inducements, but they were just taking the piss.

I would hope that we have staff who would care enough to do this, but I'm torn like others because I don't see why they should do it in their free time for nothing on the wages they earn. We do pay our staff admin time to do paperwork where it is required.

If it was me, regardless of the pay, I would do it anyway like others have said. Mind you I am probably doing 20 hours a week free as Chair so I'm obviously mad anyway.

Just one thing I wanted to add as a parent, I have to admit that I have not read every page of the lovely folder sent home for me when my eldest child left preschool. It's nice for parents to have, but it's not something I have looked through endlessly (I'll probably drag it out when he hits 16 though!!)

To my mind it is a case that you are being asked to complete these folders to 'prove' what you are doing daily so that Ofsted etc. can check up on you. If you were fully trusted, you would be allowed to use your professional judgement and your 'sense' of each individual child to work out the next steps without having to document it all.

It broke my heart when we had a visit from some owls and as the children handled them the staff got out their sticky labels and camera to record what was going on for the folders. I do so wish they could have just relaxed and enjoyed the visit without having to 'prove' that a child had held an owl or whatever.

Suzie, you are so right!! We should be trusted enough to know these childrne. Some of ours have been with us for 2 years, 5 mornings a week and I have extremely experienced staff. I trust them and I know that they can tell you straight away what most of 'their' children are capable of and what is required to support/develop them. But unfortunately we are constantly being asked to prove this. I know exactly what you mean about your owl visit as well.. I often think, when parents have looked through or been given their childs learning journeys
, what a shock they must get when they start school!! Small paragraph once/twice a year if you are lucky and the older they get the less info you get!!

Lynned55 We do learning journeys in schools too!!!

No key workers and I have 30 children.

S

I thnik it so bad for childern to be endlessly photographed. It takes away theirownership of what they do, breaks their concentration and encourages them to be self-conscious and narcissistic

Really? I guess it depends on the terminology you use, and what the purpose of the photograph is. Children in our setting love looking at photographs of themselves, and remembering what they were doing, who said what to who and what happened next. To use the owl example, parents who were unable to join in with the activity would just love the photograph of their child holding an owl - and the photograph would aid the child's recall of the event long after the real memory had faded. If practitioners can use this photograph as evidence of the children's learning too then that is a bonus.

Maz

I can see both sides of this. In our setting when used appropriately the children love looking at the photos too and remembering what they did and parents are very positive about their use. However we have a regular enrichment activity (fortnightly) and the staff seem to take the opportunity to step back every time and photograph. I've actually taken to hiding the camera from them on that day as we have so many pictures of the same things that it is driving me mad! I would much prefer the staff got their sleeves rolled up and joined in with the children for a while. No amount of modeling from me seems to encourage them to do this - I just get looked at as if I am mad!

I love photos, children love photos, parents love photos........

Today is a great example - we have been on an 'outing' - to our Primary School - the children have had a wonderful time - they used the 'Adventure Trail' and the schools (prize winning) Literacy Garden........we had a very special storytime inside the Tepee......I have 'snapped away' - I have produced small photos for Learning Journey folders and larger photos which will be mounted on display boards and used in our setting.........

I'm sure that the children, their parents and visitors to pre-school will be absolutely delighted to see the photos, which hopefully capture the wonderful time that was had by all........

I never take 'posed' photos - just completely natural - so there is certainly not any disruption to the children's enjoyment of activities - or big adventures like today!

We are the same. The committee want me to encourage staff to be involved in updating their learning journals but we don't get time during sessions and it's not fair to keep asking them to do them unpaid at home.

So stressful and yet here is me trying desperately to keep everyone happy

Sorry Spiral - we got a bit off subject there with our talk of photos!

We send our Learning Journey folders home - once every term...........we write 'records home - parents comments' on them and always get some super duper comments from parents..........

I have long felt that this gives a great incentive for staff (and me!) to do a good job in keeping folders up to date and interesting!

We also struggle with this. Last year we managed to secure an hour a week non contact time for staff to update - some worked speedily and made progress, others enjoyed tea and biscuits and worked at a more leisurely pace! This year we are full to bursting with lots of new children and the hour has disappeared so the new plan is to snatch time when we can and then meet more formally once every six weeks-ish to update our own key children but with input from others as required. We will be sending them home half termly (every 6 week-ish) and spending some time during session with our children so they can look at them, add to them, have a growing awareness that they are their special books etc...Our children love to look at photos - we have a scrap book record of pre-school and I think they would love to have their own. this is our plan - who knows if it will work!! I don't think there is a concrete answer - we are a pre-school, there isn't a bottomless pitt of money, or more significantly enough time to do a prefect job, but I think it's important to remember this journal is just a small part of the information shared with parents - I know ours will enjoy it but just as much they apprecicate a few words at the end of session, an email etc... We all do our best with a variety of children, parents and staff, we are not teachers and the most important thing is the experience our children have, not the evidence of the experience our children have - this is something we mustn't lose sight of.
Off my soap box now - just my thoughts! Interesting reading all of yours:)